教育王國

標題: 李光耀承認推行雙語教學政策錯誤 [打印本頁]

作者: Onsen 時間: 09-11-18 17:25 標題: 李光耀承認推行雙語教學政策錯誤

"李光耀承認推行雙語教學政策錯誤

2009-11-18 HKT 17:12

新加坡內閣資政李光耀承認，自己早年推行雙語教學的方法是錯誤的，導致幾代人對華文失去興趣。
李光耀在新加坡華文教學研究中心主持開幕時說，早年推行雙語政策時，以為學生透過死記硬背，就能同時學好兩種語文的教學方法，是走錯方向，他將在有生之年，把過去的錯誤完全糾正過來。

他又鼓勵家長，在家中與子女說華語，令子女不排斥華文 "

This is really serious admission of guilt coming from the father of Singapore.

作者: Mighty 時間: 09-11-18 18:04

我覚得這有点政治意識、現在中国強起来了、人人北望。　若今日的中国不是今日這様経済起飛、他又会這様説嗎？連英国也流行普通話作外語！！　不竟他也像OBAMA一様、是務実的。

作者: mattsmum 時間: 09-11-18 20:54 標題: 回覆 1# Mighty 的文章

1. 從抓住學生的興趣開始。
2. 讓學生學習漢語拼音及認字，因為寫字這個學習環節未來的實用性已不再那麼重要

內閣資政李光耀承認，政府早年推行雙語政策時，以為所有學生透過死記硬背就能同時學好兩種語文的教學方法，是走錯了方向，他將在有生之年把過去的錯誤完全糾正過來。

為此，他強調教育部必須利用能引起學生學習興趣的方式去扭轉華文的教學情況。

他昨晚為新加坡華文教研中心主持開幕式時講話，指出我國當前所面對的挑戰是如何引導家庭用語為英語的孩童對華文學習產生好感，進而樂意去學習這門語文。而一種可行的方法就是先引起他們對華文的興趣。

“我要所有的年輕教育工作者都明白這就是我們下來的發展方向，要使用信息科技、透過戲劇及以任何一種能抓住學生學習興趣的方法，不管他們掌握到何種程度，只要讓他們喜歡上這門語文，認為這是好玩的，以後就會使用。”

李資政以本身作為雙語政策倡導者對我國語言政策演變的觀察，以及個人曾學習多達六種語言的經驗，針對這項政策是如何一開始就在錯誤的前提下實施，到政策要如何順應未來的語言環境的需要，同上百名教育工作者分享心得。

他坦言政府早年的雙語政策的實施方式，因為當初對人類學習語言能力的誤解，從一開始就走錯了路，而規定學生聽寫、默寫的教學方式簡直是“瘋狂”的，而且也因為沒考慮到講英語學生的心理，沒使用以英語教華文的靈活教學方式，導致許多學生完全排斥華文，為此付出了沉重的代價。

“在教育部門裡，沒有一個人比我更了解雙語政策。因這是我一直都在堅持推行的，但我當初的前提是錯誤的。我原本以為只要智力相同，人們就能學好兩種語文。”

然而，後來的科學研究，包括移居美國的第二代中國人未必就一定能學好華文，以及他對本身儘管曾學習多種語言，成果卻有別的體悟，讓他相信語言的學習必須先從抓住學生的興趣開始。

“漸漸的，我介入了教導語文的政策，並堅持要以我的經驗來引導政策的方向。我是在冒險，我開始時做錯了，但是我要將它糾正過來。雖然尚未完全糾正過來，但是如果我能活得更久，我一定會把它給改過來。”

每年都到中國訪問的李資政，也舉當地最優秀的通譯員為例，指出由於他們的第一語文是華文，所以在進行英譯中的通譯時如魚得水，但是在中譯英時，就未必能做得一樣精確。

“我的結論是沒有任何一個人能以同樣的程度來掌握好兩種語文。如果你認為自己可以，那是在自欺欺人。”他認為對一門語言的學習，離不開它的實用性。因此他要求教育部著重讓學生學習漢語拼音及認字，因為寫字這個學習環節未來的實用性已不再那麼重要。重要的是如果學生能透過電腦的幫助進行簡單的中英翻譯，即表示他們了解這兩種語言，這該是未來的教學方向。

他指出，家長和孩子其實都了解在未來的世界，懂得華文就等於有了額外的市場價值。因此，重要的是要在學生身上打下一定的華文基礎，讓他們日後如果到了中國等需要使用華文的地方工作，即使一時生疏，很快就能重新掌握。

華文教研中心董事會主席胡以晨在開幕式上講話時表示，政府所推行的雙語政策使新加坡擁有龐大的以華文作為第二語文的教學實驗場。華文教研中心要是成功發展，還可成為外國雙語教學的典範。

作者: mattsmum 時間: 09-11-18 20:57 標題: 回覆 1# mattsmum 的文章

“。。。我认为与其在电脑上学笔顺，不如用纸笔，一笔一划写20遍，这样对部首偏旁，印象更深，效果可能更好。”

受访专家：教育界应更广泛使用差异教学
(2009-11-18)

。。。香港大学教育学院副院长谢锡金教授昨天出席新加坡华文教研中心举办的国际研讨会时接受本报访问，发表看法。

　　谢锡金教授说，除了本地学生外，新加坡同时还有新移民的后代和外国人一起在学校里学习华语。学生的背景因此相当复杂，因为华语对有些人来说是第一语言、另一些人来说是第二语言。华语对小部分的学生而言甚至是外语。要帮助能力强的孩子更上一层楼，同时兼顾较弱的学生，新加坡教育界应该更广泛地使用差异教学。

　　谢锡金教授是华文教研中心五名海外顾问之一，他也曾在2004年担任新加坡教育部华文教改委员会的顾问，对我国华文教育政策的演变与执行十分了解。

　　他说：“能力好或能力弱的学生都可以在一个班级内学习，不过一定要进行差异教学，不然有些人的程度会受影响和降低。新加坡为了因材施教，已经在小学采用‘单元模式’的教学法，不过这依然停留在单篇课文的操作上。要发展的是，怎么在课外读物上也进行这样的差异教学。”
。。。。。
对华文初学者　传统学习法仍最好

　　美国知名汉学家顾百里认为，利用多媒体科技学习华文固然好，但那比较适合华文水平中上的学生，对于初学者，传统的方法还是最好的。

　　顾百里（Comelius C. Kubler）是美国维廉大学（Williams College）亚洲研究系史丹费尔德（Stanfield）讲座教授及创系主任。。。。

　　　　顾百里是美籍德裔，儿子出生后，他和来自台湾的妻子，就决定送儿子两样礼物，一是华文，一是德文。从儿子出生第一天，他们就和儿子说华语，儿子两岁生日那天，他开始和儿子说德语。儿子长大后，在耶鲁大学读国际关系，是个通晓英、德、华三语人才。

　　顾百里说，华人家庭如果双亲都能讲华语，最好都能和孩子讲华语，否则，父亲或母亲能说也好。家庭是为孩子打好华文基础最好的地方。

　　在谈到多媒体学华文，他说，中高水平的学生，利用电脑软件、录音带、录像带学习华文，效果是好的。华文水平高的，利用多媒体，可以自学，学得更多。华文水平不够高的，也可以利用多媒体，勤奋补足。但是对初学者，他认为利用传统方法，还是最好的。

　　他说：“有些电脑软件教学生学习笔顺，我认为与其在电脑上学笔顺，不如用纸笔，一笔一划写20遍，这样对部首偏旁，印象更深，效果可能更好。”

　　顾百里听说新加坡学校不再要求学生听写默写，而是允许学生在电脑输入拼音，打出来就是汉字。他说，美国也有很多学生感觉汉字很漂亮，但是很难写，如果能直接用电脑写作，他很愿意参考新加坡在这方面的研究。

[ 本帖最後由 mattsmum 於 09-11-18 22:31 編輯 ]

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 10:51 標題: 回覆 1# mattsmum 的文章

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 12:17

Lee is only Lee and can only be Lee. To him, language is nothing but a tool. If he lives long enough to see the prediction of E Said come true, he may well be the first one to jump out and promote the learning of Hindi, Kiswahili, Setswana and Zulu. یا گپھا کے idiots.

[ 本帖最後由 iamfine 於 09-11-19 12:19 編輯 ]

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 12:24

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 12:29

Majulah Singapura!

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 13:13

Do you think that your knowledge, your experience and your wisdom is better than 李資政?

Just now I saw Logic for Dummies at Dymocks for $169 only.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 14:07

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 14:17

You are so much fun. Don't let it stop. Here is an open bet.

You said,

Do you think that your knowledge, your experience and your wisdom is better than 李資政? Who's comment will be more trust-worthy in general or more worth-while to take into serious consideration, you or 李資政?

The question is: Prove, with reference to logic, that iamfine needs to be more knowledgeable and experienced and wiser than Lee to say what is said in post#6 above. (words count: not more than 300 in either Chinese or English)

Name a university discussion forum. Anyone. I'll post your answer to the forum of your choice and ask people to rate it. If more than one person (out of a minimum of 10 replies) rate your answer as good or above, I'll buy 100 copies of your son's book. If you lose, you don't have to do anything, save that you will be invited to consider refraining from talking about logic.

作者: oooray 時間: 09-11-19 14:32

原帖由 iamfine 於 09-11-19 14:17 發表
You are so much fun. Don't let it stop. Here is an open bet.

You said,

The question is: Prove, with reference to logic, that iamfine needs to be more knowledgeable and experienced and wiser than ...

Follower of Elitism.

作者: thankful 時間: 09-11-19 14:38

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作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 14:46

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 14:59

Bet not taken I guess. Too bad. Was expecting more fun.

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 15:09

What you two are talking about is far too difficult for a layman like me to understand. I think I am going to get a set of Logic for Dummies. By the way, does it really work? Admitting to be a dummy is bad enough, but to waste another $169 and learn nothing would even be dumber.

Hi Thankful. I might as well get a copy for myself. Need to detox ... BTW, have I taken issue with anything the Lee said? What worries me is I can't remember having ever disagreed with what the Lee said and I certainly did not call him an idiot (who I am referring to is at everybody's guess). Sign of early demantia? I hope not.

[ 本帖最後由 iamfine 於 09-11-19 15:13 編輯 ]

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 15:15

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作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 15:19

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 15:22

Mr wisekid2007,

At the risk of boring all those who can see it to death, let me say this. Your problem is you wrongly assumed that my post#6 was a reply to your earlier post and started to shout like a brat without starting to think.

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 15:31

You know yourself in your mind whether you have disgreed with Mr. Lee's views although you haven't explicitly posting the wordings out.

You can read my mind? Now I am concerned.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 15:58

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 16:16

Again you made the wrong assumption. As a matter of fact, I did not call you an idiot. There is a "s" at the end of "idiot". Can't you read? Everything is in black and white. I can't deny it if I'd called you an idiot, can I? As to why you would choose to associate yourself with the word you highlighted in red, you know it better than I do.

You started the name calling and called me "narrow-minded, idiotic and not deserving serious consideration", questioned my "knowledge, experience and trust-worthiness" for no good reason. That's why I felt so gutted. Was I barred from echoing Mighty's view? Did I say it's wrong for Lee to think that students cannot do both English and Chinese well? (BTW, even if I disagree with Lee, so what?) Wasn't it obvious that I was questioning his utilitarian view?

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 16:34

By the way, یا گپھا کے idiots mean worldly result-oriented idiots. I did not make reference to you when I posted, but if you are under a compulsion to associate yourself with those words, I'll leave it to you.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 16:51

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 16:56

I'll leave it to you, as I said.

[ 本帖最後由 iamfine 於 09-11-19 17:03 編輯 ]

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 16:59

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作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 17:02

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作者: tingtingting 時間: 09-11-20 09:34

Some interesting comments on the remarks of the Minister Mentor:

http://urbanrant.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-i-think-mm-lee-is-wrong-about.html

http://gweipo.blogspot.com/2009/11/where-theres-will-theres-minister.html

作者: tingtingting 時間: 09-11-20 09:45

Just found some more:

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/11/mm-lee’s-admission-–-a-good-time-for-govt-to-reflect-on-policy/

http://seijieiga.blogspot.com/2009/11/mm-lee-on-singapores-bilingual-policy.html

http://sturmdesjahrhunderts.wordpress.com/2009/11/18/i-am-singaporean-ii-bilingualism-is-bad/

http://geraldgiam.sg/2009/11/my-struggle-with-chinese/#more-1097

Some of the readers' comments are very interesting. Didn't expect that much of grievance from his fellow Singaporean though.

作者: papa_pop 時間: 09-11-21 12:32

The headline is definitely a draw.  But, again, like some press stories, you have to read between the lines to really see what Lee Kuan Yew is confessing.

IF one interprets that Lee confessed the bilingual policy a total failure, it would certainly draw a lot of objections - among his fellow Singaporeans and peoples from other Western countries, esp those taking Singapore as a location of choice for their businesses and jobs.

If not for the Singlish accent, I would say that most Singaporeans are truly bilingual (if one 'defines' bilingual as someone 'perfectly mastering' two languages, that's another story.  In that sense, I doubt even some Europeans can claim themselves as bilingual or multilingual).  Their mastery of English can 'export' them as native-English teachers to other places, HK included.

As to why Lee had to admit failure, as someone pointed out, it's more a political gesture.  What he's trying to say, perhaps, is that he's TOO biased towards English in his bilingual policy.  However, one has to admit that generally Singaporeans (born after 1970s) command a native-level of English and speak at least one (own) ethnic language.  That already works well with the international world of business, finance, education....

By the way, what would he do to 'rectify' his mistake?

作者: mattsmum 時間: 09-11-21 13:24 標題: 回覆 1# papa_pop 的文章

heard from shanghai: international companies prepfer to employ singaporean- they can master languages well, willing to go abroad.

difficult to recruit hk staff.

作者: thankful 時間: 09-11-21 16:27

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-25 10:47

Accent itself hardly matters.

Absolutely.

The English mania is such a phenomenon in China and many developing countries (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en ... _english_mania.html).

I guess I am still living in a developing country.

作者: stccmc 時間: 09-11-29 15:07

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-11-30 00:10

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-11-30 10:00

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作者: nintendo 時間: 09-11-30 17:58

口音, 唔係唔重要
不過讀, 寫, 理解, 甚至文法, 都比口音重要

PS. 唔好將 ACCENT 同 "讀音錯" 混淆

作者: nintendo 時間: 09-11-30 17:58

口音, 唔係唔重要
不過讀, 寫, 理解, 甚至文法, 都比口音重要

PS. 唔好將 "口音" 同 "讀音錯" 混淆

[ 本帖最後由 nintendo 於 09-11-30 23:50 編輯 ]

作者: thankful 時間: 09-11-30 22:02

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-11-30 23:17

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-11-30 23:35

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作者: nintendo 時間: 09-11-30 23:51

原帖由 thankful 於 09-11-30 22:02 發表
Sorry, I am just a bit curious. What in your view is even less important than accents?

"Accent" is already at the bottom of my "list".

What is your view?

作者: nintendo 時間: 09-11-30 23:59

I would say that Singaporean and Indian accents are fine with me. May be it is that I have quite a lot of Singaporean and Indian friends since I was in high school.
At ordinary communication level, seldom would genuinely English speaking people complain about Singaporean, Indian, or Hong Kong accents.

Quite interesting to see that Hong Kongers are THAT concerned. Yet at the same time, not only do Hong Kongers do not have much better accents, we are also poor in respect of other English skills (eg grammar, pronounciations, the ability to express oneself properly, etc).

Funny isn't it...

作者: nintendo 時間: 09-12-1 00:04

原帖由 papa_pop 於 09-11-21 12:32 發表
If not for the Singlish accent, I would say that most Singaporeans are truly bilingual...

Oooo...
You have pointed out something that Hong Kongers would never want to admit: Singaporeans have better English than Hong Kongers.

作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-1 00:19

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-1 02:41

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-12-1 10:15

既然在討論雙語，就用中文發言。一來湊湊熱鬧，又可照顧個別迷信英文，但又沒有基本英文水平，寫不出一篇普通中學水平英文短文（更談不上用英文思考）的網友。

儘管不完全同意以上所有發言，喜見有意見不執著所謂皇家英語（或某君常掛在嘴邊 “English at native level, pure accent …”者，彷彿他曾經與 William Pitt 或者 Samuel Johnson 舉杯夜談，只有他們的口音才是英文）。大膽說句 - 迷信英文者，前世或今生受盡英文折磨者也。他們腦中想的是，以老子聰明才智，若加上滿口流利英文，當可打遍天下無敵手，何須屈居陋室，壯志難伸。由是故，他們不停强調英文、英文、英文、英文。對選擇本地學校者冷嘲熱諷，又對根本無須因應學校英文程度而選校者作無理謾罵。他們仍然停留在求温飽層次，根本無法明白英文對很多人只是小事一椿，英文好只是理所當然，無足掛齒。由於不明白而不安，不安而恐懼，故只好自我麻醉，整天嚷着英文好，純英文學校，純英文國際學校更好 … 我敢跟你打睹一百大元，是年 NY Times Best 100 Books，我身邊選擇 Singapore Int, RC or ISF 的，讀過的一定比英文至上者多。

作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-1 11:09

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-1 11:29

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作者: mow-mow 時間: 09-12-1 12:30

Perhaps in the era of 'My Fair Lady', Queen's English accent was indeed regarded as a symbol of good breeding & prestige.
But that was a long time ago!!

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-12-1 12:32

These people think that if they can speak with the Queen's English, they would be superior and they will gain prestige. Well, I am afraid that's not enough. They also need a blood transfusion in order to become blue blooded..

Or, a brain transplant?

作者: papa_pop 時間: 09-12-1 12:54

Perhaps I should have made myself clear in the first place - in case someone mistook it - I would never intend to insult Singaporean.  Their mastery of English allows them to 'export' native English-speaking teachers.  Here's the original post I put on 21 Nov:
"If not for the Singlish accent, I would say that most Singaporeans aretruly bilingual (if one 'defines' bilingual as someone 'perfectlymastering' two languages, that's another story.  In that sense, I doubteven some Europeans can claim themselves as bilingual ormultilingual).  Their mastery of English can 'export' them asnative-English teachers to other places, HK included."

In fact, I respect the vision of Lee Kuan Yew, who has, virtually single-handedly, MADE English their first language.  You can read Lee's autobiography which would give much insight into his thinking and rationale behind the changes he brought to Singapore.

Anyway, if someone just hand-picked a word or two out of such a lengthy post (out of context?), what can I say?

Perhaps the word "Singlish" has made someone irritated.  But I didn't mean insulting at all.  By the way, I got quite some opportunities to meet and interact with their students.  Their accent could sometimes make it difficult for one to understand clearly.  Nonetheless, most of them are able to 'tune' the accent if they spend some more time interacting with people from different countries (and with different accents).

By the way, the Singaporean publish quite a few books about Singlish (I guess they are not insulting themselves) to help tourists to get familiar with the Singaporean culture.  They even present these books to their visitors as a souvenir.

Take it easy and you'll be happy.

作者: almom 時間: 09-12-1 12:58

原帖由 mow-mow 於 09-12-1 12:30 發表
Perhaps in the era of 'My Fair Lady', Queen's English accent was indeed regarded as a symbol of good breeding & prestige.
But that was a long time ago!!

My Fair Lady was a movie. And even in the movie, Hepburn needed to learn much more than the accent itself to be like a lady.
How you speak, how you present yourself, the little gestures and even the range of vocabularies you can use...

作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-1 13:04

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作者: almom 時間: 09-12-1 13:10

原帖由 thankful 於 09-12-1 13:04 發表
A brain transplant may not work because they will run the risk of losing their beautiful Queen's English.

Perhaps they should also try dying their hair blonde, bleaching their skin to look white... ...

I have been thinking, why are people despising Singaporean or Indian accents, when they seem to be less harsh when judging Swedish, German or French accents.
May be the hair and skin colours really matter.

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-12-1 13:12 編輯 ]

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-12-1 13:17

Here is the MRI of an all-hail-English guy who happens to speak very good English: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHwXlcHcTHc (stop at 12:47)

[ 本帖最後由 iamfine 於 09-12-1 13:24 編輯 ]

作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-1 13:23

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-2 02:18

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-2 13:48

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作者: Avatar 時間: 09-12-2 15:54

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-2 21:26

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-2 21:33

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-3 00:30

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-3 00:58

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-3 03:14

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-3 10:35

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作者: papa_pop 時間: 09-12-3 12:02

My interpretation of Lee's confession about his bilingual policy remains - that is, he is NOT referring the bilingual policy as a failure in itself.  What Lee meant is, the "way" Singaporean have been taught Chinese in the past few decades does not work to his expectation. I reckon, what he's trying to say (to the Beijing government?) is that hehad never thought his bilingual policy would have led to a decline in theChinese proficiency of his fellow Singaporean.

He admitted his failure as the way English being put as their de facto first language has belittled the importance of Chinese (and other languages).  By the way, isn't the "dominance of the English language" in the city state what Lee has intended all along since Day 1?

Now that Lee has increasingly shown his respect for the Beijinggovernment, that's also the reason why I said his confession carried apolitical gesture.  He said he'd spend the rest of his life reinstating the interest in learning Chinese among Singaporean.  And he's talking about pedagogy, not the policy.

So, guys, don't take Lee's confession as a confession as such.

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-12-3 13:08

原帖由 papa_pop 於 09-12-3 12:02 發表
My interpretation of Lee's confession about his bilingual policy remains - that is, he is NOT referring the bilingual policy as a failure in itself. What Lee meant is, the "way" Singaporean have been ...

Great post. Brilliant. The MM's self-revelation is just a modern version of the Confession of Faith to the new power.

作者: Avatar 時間: 09-12-3 17:38

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-3 23:07

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作者: papa_pop 時間: 09-12-4 12:16

Well, whether it's a political gesture could be subjective or judgmental. But the gist is that I don't think he admitted the bilingual policy - in itself - was a mistake (as the headline suggests), but the pedagogy and expectation - the way the Chinese language had been taught and the proficiency level students were expected to attain.

Now he realised the importance of interest in the learning process, and that a compromise should be made - emphasising "pinyin" and "word recognition" and attaching little importance to "writing" which is deemed unnecessary in the Internet world. In short, he is 'lowering the bar' so as to stem the declining Chinese proficiency among the younger Singaporean. True that the bar would be lowered but I doubt if the students' Chinese proficiency (or their interest) would be upped.

I am not inclined to say that one can master perfectly - and equally well - two languages, perhaps with the exception of those really gifted and fortunate ones. But one can definitely be bilingual or multilingual - as are most of the Europeans, esp Dutch, Swiss, Belgian and Finn. (Please don't bother with the accent issue of Singlish or Chinglish). And Lee is multilingual though he confessed he still cannot speak Mandarin perfectly.

By the way, I've sent my kid to a so-called bilingual school but I would not expect him to be equally good at both languages. A working level of both is what I'm after. So far, he's doing okay in terms of speaking, listening and reading in both, though a bit weak in Chinese writing (improving).

作者: Avatar 時間: 09-12-4 18:28

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作者: papa_pop 時間: 09-12-4 19:21

I think Lee set out his bilingual education policy such that all Singaporeans possess 兩種語言能達到差不多相同母語級水平: with English MADE their common language and keeping their mother tongue (Chinese, Malay, Indian, etc).  He opined that one can never master two languages equally perfect.  He launched the Speak Mandarin Campaign 30 years ago to unify the Chinese language spoken by Chinese Singaporeans, closing down all dialect programs on TV and radio and making Mandarin the mother tongue of all Chinese Singaporeans.  He even asked parents to speak Mandarin (instead of English) to their children lest their next generation will lose it.

By the way, Lee is still upholding his bilingual education policy though he's kind of refining it to make it more 'balanced', which most (himself included) would consider a feat of his.  stccmc's contribution of balanced bilingual is worth consideration.

You despise the so-called bilingual schools for claiming "強調中、英俱佳，其實是誤導父母以為入讀的子女能建立雙母語能力，即英文及得上國際學校，而中文及得上本地學校。其實只是給父母們一個不切實際、虛假的夢"  As you said, one cannot be equally good at two languages. So what? And what for?  If  the kid is good enough to get a decent grade in two languages in IBDP, the parents should be more than happy.

Perhaps you are looking to tooHIGH an expectation of 'being bilingual'.  When you look out to Belgian, Dutch, Finn and Singaporean, they can definitely claimthemselves as bilingual or even multilingual.  Even when you take a look at our kids in some of the better HK kindies, aiming bilingual is not toofar-fetched as you expect.  In fact, some of the IS in HK are doing more and more toencourage bilingualism.

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-12-4 20:53

Very well said papa.pop.

Apparently, "bilingual" means different things to different people. To me, I am perfectly happy with English A at HL and Chinese A or B at HL (or even SL, as long as it is not Chinese ab initio). As far as I am aware, not a single school in Hong Kong (included those bilingual schools and international schools) has claimed that they are planning to train their students to do two language A at HL. If schools like FIS, JIS and GSIS are truly bilingual schools (I am not saying that they are not; in fact they are), what's wrong with SIS, Victoria or ISF preferring English+Chinese and calling themselves bilingual schools? Is English+French, English+Japanese or English+German superior to and more bilingual than English+Chinese? What I can never understand is some Hong Kong's readiness to belittle Chinese and to blindly worship English, to the extent that they jump on those who want their kids learn both English and Chinese naive and ignorant. I also fail to understand why some people will choose to think that their kids' brains are not big enough to learn both English and Chinese well. It may well be that 10/10 in English and 10/10 in Chinese is too hard to many. So what? Is 10/10 in English and 3/10 in Chinese necessarily better than 9/10 in English and 8/10 or 7/10 in Chinese? What's wrong those with parents who prefer the latter?

By the way, Mr. you know who you are, welcome back.

[ 本帖最後由 iamfine 於 09-12-4 21:03 編輯 ]

作者: Avatar 時間: 09-12-4 21:12

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-4 23:24

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作者: papa_pop 時間: 09-12-5 10:27

"ISF adopts a variant of the Immersion Program and it seems promising toproduce bilinguals who have both languages at near native-level, or onenative, the other near-native." That's my observation too I'm not an ISF parent though.

Apart from the school focused on bilingual education, it also benefits from a 'balanced' student body whose mother tongues comprise both English and Mandarin.  This has put ISF in an advantageous position when compared to other so-called bilingual schools.  Most of the kids there can master two languages at native or near-native level as they only need to pick up one more language on top of their mother tongue.  Sure parents have many other considerations apart from the language environment when choosing a school for their kid.

In comparison, local bilingual CKY stands a lesser position as its student body comprises 99%+ local HK Chinese with Cantonese as mother tongue. They would need to aim for biliterate and trilingual.  Again, the immersion approach has worked wonder for my kid - well, I'm not aiming too high to get him to master an English standard comparable to IS students and Chinese comparable to local students.

By the way, Avatar, I don't think there are many parents who are embracing your "不切實際、虛假的夢" when enrolling their kids in these schools.  But thank you for giving us a heads up once and again.

作者: almom 時間: 09-12-5 10:59

原帖由 Avatar 於 09-12-4 18:28 發表
因此，本人認為近年一些標榜推行Bilingual 的新興學校, 例如推行 IB 但又強調中、英俱佳，其實是誤導父母以為入讀的子女能建立雙母語能力，即英文及得上國際學校，而中文及得上本地學校。其實只是給父母們一個不切實際、虛假的夢，基本上沒有任何一個人能以同樣的程度來掌握好兩種語文。如果你認為自己可以，那是在自欺欺人。

First, IB =/= bilingual.
In fact, most students are not getting a bilingual diploma at IBD. You need to take 2 "A" languages to be bilingual. Even with CIS, which is considered to have a very good Chinese program, not all students are "bilingual" students. Many students are taking English A and Chinese B.
On ther other hand, there are indeed quite some students from CIS and other IB schools that are so competent that they do both English and Chinese (or French, etc) A and get a bilingual diploma. These students achieved that because they put in effort.

Second, IB schools do have the curriculum that ultimately lead to a bilingual diploma, IF STUDENTS WANT TO. So IB schools do have (or they have to have) the resourses to educate students to be bilingual. However, it is unrealistic to expect that everyone can be that strong.
Local schools also provide a curriculum where students can, if they work hard and try hard, get "A" in Chinese both English at HKCEE. Realistically, not many get "A" or even "B" in both. In fact, many students still fail in either or even both of the languages. Can we say that the school misled you?

Last, I also think that this discussion of whether it is possible to be "bilingual" would not be fruitful. We have different expectations of how good we have to be in the 2 languages to be called bilingual.
I would say that, since my kids are in an IB school, I might simply follow the IB criteria. If a student are taking both "A" languages, then he should be bilingual, if he attain a certain "grade". Language "A" in IBD is the "hardest" available course in the IB curriculum, I would say that if someone gets a score of say 6 (with 7 being the full score), I would say he is pretty much "good at the language". Of course, this is for my own convenience. I am sure some other people have much higher expectations. I myself is quite happy with my kids having English A and Chinese B.

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-12-5 11:07 編輯 ]

作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-5 11:20

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-5 11:25

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作者: papa_pop 時間: 09-12-5 12:08

Although I have tried not to sidetrack to the accent issue, I'm tempted (after all, it's me who mentioned Singlish in the first place on this thread).

Frank McCourt (Angela's Ashes, Teacher Man), a teacher turned writer (when he's over 60) born in New York to an Irish family, moved back to Ireland when he's about 5. Studied there till 19 when he returned to New York to join the US Army (such that he could enrol in New York University using GI Bill).

When McCourt started his teaching career at 28 in New York, he was embarrassed by his strong Irish accent and teased by his students (and parents), and was almost told to go back to his Old Country with his 'brogue'. Mind you that he was teaching in a vocational and technical high school where students would proceed to become plumbers and machine men, not an independent private school for US brats.

[ 本帖最後由 papa_pop 於 09-12-5 12:09 編輯 ]

作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-5 13:24

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-5 14:02

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作者: mow-mow 時間: 09-12-5 18:10

To those who stress so much importance on accents, I wonder if you would seriously consider that McCourt's level of English language ability (due to his strong Irish accent) is lower than those of his students, who were destined to be plumbers.
Accent is superficial, content is what reallly matters.
If I were McCourt, I wouldn't be embarassed by the accent at all.Their teasing him & telling him to go back to the Old Country is nothing short of racisim!

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-12-5 18:37

Professor Yash Pal Ghai when he first came to HK was accused of speaking with an African accent that nobody can understand. See what he has left with HKU and see how he is now changing Kenya and the rest of Africa, almost single-handedly.

作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-5 20:52

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-6 01:09

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-6 02:48

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-6 04:58

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作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-6 05:52

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-6 10:53

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-6 11:48

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作者: thankful 時間: 09-12-6 11:58

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作者: almom 時間: 09-12-6 12:16

原帖由 thankful 於 09-12-6 11:58 發表
Papa_pop, where are you? We need your help because I find talking to stccmc is absolutely hopeless and it will lead us nowhere (except the entertaining part about 陳克勤 which he steadfastly refuses to give us an aswer). Please clarify what you meant. Please reply to #86.

Hey, friend.
I have BK arranged the topics such that the newest reply to a topic is always "on top" on my screen and it is always #1. So the "number" of the replies change each time there is a new reply. In this respect, I cannot locate your #86.

What was it about?

作者: stccmc 時間: 09-12-6 12:17

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