IS (ie ESF) or local DSS (ie DBSPD/ St. Paul's Co-ed)

almom

原帖由 Adrimom 於 09-3-31 10:20 發表
So does that mean one has to stick with local/ IS once the decision is made as it's really hard to switch to a different stream later on?  It's a really tough decision to make though

Not exactly tough.
There must be qualities you expect from a school that you would never want to compromise.
Make a list of what you expect from a school.
Then arrange them in your order of preference.
Qualities may be, say, fees of the school, distance of travelling from home, national background, religion, language of instructions, curriculum, etc.....
Then search and shortlist a few schools (local or international) and compare them to your list.
There are probably no schools that can fulfil all your needs. But there must be one that is closest to what you want.
Then go for it and forget about whether it is "classified" local or international.
Make sense?

almom

I saw some members discussing about Renaissance College.  Is it supposed to be more balance btwn Eng and Chi lanaguage exposure?

Let me ask you one question. What do you expect from your child regarding Chinese?

There are Chinese classes at RC but what I feel is that Chinese at RC is still merely a second language. And because of the background of the students, it is really hard for the school to move forward with their Chinese program.

RC has a very mixed culture. I do not want to argue further with those who insist that RC have mainly local Chinese students. But this is my second year with RC and what I see is that RC indeed have mainly non-local students. When I said non-local, I meant (1) non-Chinese students (eg. western kids, and asian kids from japan or korea, etc) and (2) non-Chinese speaking ethnic Chinese kids (like my children).

If we are talking about the fact that more than half of the students in each class are with such background, it would be very hard if not impossible for the school to think of ways to push the Chinese standard to a higher level. My kids are already the better ones, bearing in mind that their Chinese is only non-native level. There are so many other kids do not write or even speak any Chinese at all, and they seem to be in the beginner class forever.

We have the so-called more advanced classes, and they are actually using local text book. But what I heard is that what they teach is very shallow. Children are expected to know the meaning of the words and how to write the words. But that's mostly it. They do not exactly go far into literacy and language skills.

The way I see is that the school did have the intention to build RC into a school with stronger Chinese.  However, because of the limitation in time and resources, and the mixture of students (ie, there are just too many students with Chinese as a second language), it is quite impossible for RC to develop into the school with stronger Chinese than we have now.

Having said that, I do not believe this would be a big problem because seldom do we really need really high level of Chinese skills in real daily life.

Also, if you are a local Chinese family, then I am sure your kid's Chinese should be better than my kids. But of course, I know that some parents are expecting Chinese comparable or nearly comparable to local schools. I remember one parent even said that she expected her kid to write something as good as an average columnist in a Chinese newspaper. Then I suggest that they do not choose RC. RC's Chinese program would never be able to be that strong.

However, if you expect your kid to be able to write simple stories, to be able to read Chinese newspaper headlines, etc, then I believe many RC secondary kids can do that. In fact, my kids are now able to pick up bits from Apple Daily and have no huge problem with ordering food at a Chinese restaurant. I also know that quite some western kids in the RC secondary are able to speak, read and write a lot of Chinese.

So it comes back to the same question. What do you expect from your child?

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-4-1 12:51 編輯 ]

almom

原帖由 kcpapa 於 09-4-5 18:31 發表
Pls kindly try to visit the website of IB.  Then we will know the trend of lauguage.  This is just my prediction... no proof.  Do not take this too serious as I see some parents are quite too serious lately.  Calm down and BK is just a place for parent 'blowing water',  you know just water.  If you feel good, take it, if not sing-a-song.  

You are absolutely right.
But there are things that I insist I take it seriously, especially about factual information.
Agree?

So no matter RC (PIC) or ESF school, they should have a very serious program to filful the standard of IB in the 2nd language.....

Now, ESF schools are going to IB, after the last class of IGCSE students leave the school, all ESF will be IB school  (if wrong, pls let me know, I am not sure if South Island school and KGV will also go IB).  So the level of Chinese should be re-design and more emphasis should be put.  

So I think no matter PIC or ESF, the Chinese level will be improved.

You have described the most ideal situation.

All students are required to have 2 languages for IBD.

One has to be a language A1, which is the first language. All ESF and RC students are taking English A1 as first language.

Then there is a second language. It can either be A1, A2, B or ab initio.

A1 and A2 are native level. So if we are talking about Chinese A1 and A2, that would be hard. How hard? Well, just imagine what they are doing for English language at ESF. Chinese A1 and A2 are exactly the "Chinese version". We are talking about a lot of discussions and critics about literature, history, political issues, etc, all in Chinese language.

Language B is, on the other hand, merely second language level. They teach language B at much narrower and much shallower level. They are merely language itself.

Needless to say, ab initio is even more "elementary". I know that this is in fact for those who have learnt a language for just a few years.

My understanding is that very few international school students would be able to take Chinese A. Even with Yiu Chung and CIS, not many of them would opt to take Chinese A.

For RC, we have Chinese classes since P1. Technically speaking, all students that join at P1 should be able to have at least Chinese B when they reach IBD. However, there are also different levels chinese classes available for all year levels. What I see is that, because of the choices (or options) of different levels, the general atmosphere of Chinese learning is not as serious as other subjects. The Chinese department is doing a good job. Parents are probably also keen. But students do not seem to be taking chinese classes as seriously as other classes.

I cannot really have enough experience yet with language B to discuss further how "shallow" is language B. But I can say that it is far shallower than I have expected.

So this "option" of having different levels of Chinese classes sounded so ideal, but it is also a weak point of the program at RC. More options seem to be able to provide more choices of different level of Chinese classes. But more options may also give students the impression that there is always somewhere they can go even if they do not try hard.

Nonetheless, I believe it has probably never been an intention for IBO to require every IB student to have really a strong second language. I am sure RC is doing just what is required to bring everyone up to the required second language level. Just that it is probably my own expectation (and probably a lot other parents too) that IB Chinese B would be slightly more than what we have now.

To wrap up, if parents want good Chinese, it is too risky and unrealistic to believe that RC or ESF can deliever what they want. However, if you are happy with whatever you can get with one daily Chinese lesson, then RC or ESF are good options.

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-4-6 14:11 編輯 ]

almom

原帖由 yyyy 於 09-4-9 11:59 發表
如果從grade的角度出發,當然是選as 2nd language,因為對手相對不強,拿高分的機會大些;

I think, for IB, the grade that you get with have nothing to do with 對手. Everyone is assessed according to his own performance. So, if it happens that everyone one is that good, we can have everyone getting 7s or 6s. Please correct me if my understanding is wrong though.

I know that most international school students in Hong Kong taking IBD are taking Chinese as second language. There are some that do both Chinese and English at first language level. But I am sure they are really the very few "good ones", because Chinese A is really hard and not every international school student can cope.

What subjects (and what level of the subjects) you should choose would very much depend on what you need to apply for universities.

For example, high level math would be necessary for engineerings. On the other hand, if you are considering majoring in English language, why take the hardest math to make your life difficult?

Practically speaking, it is not wise to (and students would usually be advised not to) take lots of "hard" subjects, unless they are absolutely necessary for application to universities.

It is the school's responsibility (because they should have the expertise to provide advice) to help students choose subjects. There are tactics that you need in order to choose the right subjects (at the right levels) to maximize your score. And a good school counselling team should be able to help students make the right choice.

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-4-9 16:31 編輯 ]

almom

foolish.mom,

You are absolutely right. Chinese language is now extremely important. Many of my friends in the US (western friends) are making their children learn Chinese language at school. In fact, a lot of schools in the US are offering Chinese as an option, and it is probably the next most popular second language after Spanish.

I am now in a situation and would like to have yours and other parents view. I am now standing at a point where I really have problems pushing my kids Chinese further up. (Headache...)

My children have always been using English as their first language. I think it is their own Chinese foundation that make it really hard to move to anything close to Chinese A. In fact, they are probably the best amongst other students with similar background. Those kids seem to have been in the beginner level forever.

Of course, ideally, if they can even move a little up and have slightly better Chinese it would be good. But I think after almost 2 years with RC, I need to accept that this is probably quite impossible. They really cannot cope anything harder than the Chinese classes now.

I have been thinking. I stopped learning Chinese since secondary school when I moved to Canada. Since then I have studied in both Canada and the US without going back to seriously learn Chinese language at all.

I still speak and write Chinese and all my previous employers knew that. They have never doubt my Chinese language reading and writing ability, knowing that I have lived in North America for 20+ years, knowing that I only officially have primary level Chinese skills.

Obviously they did not ask for any official qualifications of Chinese language from me at all. And as far as I know, employers seldom check the Chinese language qualifications. In fact, I think quite a lot of overseas educated Hong Konger probably left Hong Kong as early as right after primary school (like me) and they would not have any official Chinese language qualifications at all. Unless you are thinking of being a civil servant, it appears to me that employers are more keen on making sure that your professional qualifications  are good (your major at university is relevant) than checking out what you had for Chinese at HKCEE or A Level.

So is it really necessary that my children would need a Chinese A at all 10+ years from now? Chinese B would sound like much more "advanced" than my primary level Chinese. If I and so many others who do not have any Chinese language qualifications at all had no problem with using Chinese at work, why would any one with a Chinese B have any problem at all?

All views are welcome.

BTW, foolish.mom, do you mind telling us which school is your child(ren) studying now? Can you please share how you helped your child(ren) keep up with Chinese in an international school. It is already hard to really keep up and let alone being able to be as good as Chinese A level.

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-4-11 11:54 編輯 ]

almom

原帖由 Saturn 於 09-4-12 13:51 發表
Hi Almom,

Would you pls check pm?  Thanks.

Saturn.

I accidentally deleted a couple pm just now. Can you resend yours please? Thanks.

almom

Thanks Mattsmum!

Do you think you can get hold of the Chinese B reading/study list too?

almom

Thanks a lot, Mattsmum!
Very useful site indeed!
Chinese B is probably still quite challenging for IS students.