ISF or CDNIS?

jolalee

bobbycheung 發表於 12-6-27 00:40
I don't understand how ISF students could spend so much less time and yet achieve the same English standard as those other IS students who spend infinitely more time on it.  I just ask WHY and HOW it could be done and I thought it's a fair question.  Yes, I have heard many parents saying it's indeed the case.  But it's the end result and it's not what my question is directing at.  I am rather interested in HOW they could do it.

FattyDaddy 發表於 12-11-26 18:34 When it comes to Chinese / English though, their writing systems are completely different, you simply have to learn both from scratch, and because reading and writing Chinese are much harder and require much more time and effort to learn, many children would simply give up if they are left to their own choosing.

I come into this thread halfway and haven't read all the discussion in between. I just want to address bobby's question on how this is possible. Instead of looking at the less amount of time spent on English, we must address how come ISF allot so much time on Chinese (which FattyDaddy has already touched on).

The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) of USA has created a list to show the approximate time you need to learn a specific language as an English speaker:

http://www.effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/language-difficulty

Of the 61 languages analyzed, both Cantonese and Mandarin Chinese are 2 of the 5 languages listed as Category 5: Languages which are exceptionally difficult for native English speakers requiring 88 weeks (2200 hours) to learn. This somewhat proved that English and Chinese are as different as Heaven and Earth, and we all know how crazy it is to try to learn all the Chinese characters as children ourselves. It is therefore logical to concentrate on the more difficult language, if the aim is to acquire both languages equally well.

That said, I also agree that all languages are not just grammar and syntax, and the amount of time spent on any specific language also includes cultural immersion and the intellectual stimulation that particular language provides. At the end of the day each family is unique and we have different expectations as to what we want to pass down onto our next generation. Along with the languages, which is only the tip of the iceberg, there is a vast amount of wisdom and world views associated with them. Along with each tongue, there really is a different kind of brainwork attached to it.

HKTHK

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I haven't reread the whole thread either but I will try to summarize the question as: Why does a school like ISF claim that it can achieve the same level of English proficiency while its actual time of instruction substantially lack other IS?  I guess on the flip side, you can also ask the same question about Chinese proficiency compared to LS.

FattyDaddy

HKTHK 發表於 12-11-27 01:48
That would be my "guess" as well but that is not borne out by research.  I j ...

I think we are talking about different things here. I have no doubt that a bilingual immersion programme is of great value in learning to listen and speak a non-native language, I was just saying it doesn't help much when it comes to learning to read and write Chinese.

It is not a guess either, we see many real life examples around us. It is not uncommon for non-native Chinese speakers to learn to speak Cantonese or Mandarin to a very high standard, e.g. 河國榮, 喬寶寶, but few of them could read or write Chinese characters to the same level, this phenomenon also occurs in IS students. The reason is quite simple, Chinese characters are detached from the spoken language, knowing how to speak does not help much in learning how to read and write, while in an alphabetic language, once you know how to speak you can acquire reading and writing skills quite easily because the written words are just phonetic representations of the spoken sounds.

HKTHK

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Agree that reading and writing Chinese is more difficult than listening and speaking.  But the research already confirms that two-way immersion works for reading and writing skills as well.

Direct quote from the presentation:

"In both Programs, both native Chinese speaking and native English speaking students developed oral language (listening, speaking) skills and literacy (reading, writing) skills in Cantonese or Mandarin."

FattyDaddy

HKTHK 發表於 12-11-27 13:58
"In both Programs, both native Chinese speaking and native English speaking students developed oral language (listening, speaking) skills and literacy (reading, writing) skills in Cantonese or Mandarin." ...

Developed skills yes, but it didn't mention to what level.

Real life experience tells us, a non-native's Chinese literacy skills usually lag far behind their oral skills, and this is happening to many IS students even if they are ethnic Chinese. I guess many IS parents here can say just how hard they had to coerce and push their children to spend extra time and effort to read/write Chinese in order to attain a respectable level of literacy.

HKTHK

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Am not knowledgeable enough to know what specific standards they used in the research.  It did say (without mentioning which grade) that about 80% of the students feel comfortable translating one language to the other and vice versa in writing.

But this is a moot point for this specific case.  ISF uses local school text books at the same grade level in Chinese so reading and writing are similar to LS standards.

HKTHK

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Unfortunately, more homework is expected and indeed true  

annie40

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看过ISF的中学中文书, 程度肯定高于local school.

NoahArk

annie40 發表於 12-11-28 14:31
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看过ISF的中学中文书, 程度肯定高于local school.

That's what I think.  My neighbor's daughter (now at ISF Middle School) is a good friend of my daughter.  According to my daughter (she is now at another IS which is said to have a good Chinese program), ISF's Chinese is way more advanced.  This I believe is in accordance with the figures: about 80% of ISF first cohort got a bilingual diploma (only 30% or fewer of the students from my daughter's school were awarded a bilingual diploma last year).

On a side issue, I attended a meeting with my daughter's school's IB coordinator and university counselor the other day.  Quite a number of parents were concerned about the news (or rumors) that university admission officers are not entirely happy with students from HK and Singapore taking Chinese in Group Two.  The counselor did not answer our questions directly but said the students should now think twice before dropping Chinese to Language B by default.  Two reasons were mentioned: Language B Chinese is getting more difficult and will require a lot of work under the new syllabus; Although in the old days universities cared about IBDP points and points only, these days more and more admission officers may tend to think that those Chinese students who take Chinese language B at standard level are taking the easy way out, if not actually cheating.  Not all the parents buy the two reasons.  Some tended to think that the school was trying to justify its new Chinese program...

Any thought?

annie40

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功课是永远的有人嫌多, 有人嫌少的.  多极也不会多过local school 的, 不如老实的鼓励孩子面对. 念其他IS 的, 咪一样有人要做长期做Kumon 的中文和,数学, 又有几份补习.  条数加埋也是相同.  甚至于多一点, 读ISF 常见是被质疑英语水平. 从前我也是这般想法, 然随着孩子长大, 明白普遍的IS 内的英语水平也是因人而异的, 因此不要以偏蓋全，更不要凡事倚赖学校, 如果希望孩子英语出色, 父母必然要多花心思,制造语境, 东西文化交流等.

总的来说我对ＩＳＦ能成功教育孩子掌握流利双语，包括听，读，写，是非常乐观的，只是成功比率是中，高，低而已．　

　　

Sunsunmama

原帖由 nintendo 於 12-05-18 發表
本帖最後由 nintendo 於 12-5-18 16:44 編輯

May I ask what ibdp?

annie40

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Hi NoahArk,

多谢欲知我的想发, 其实不是懂得太多, , 只能随意分享所闻所见.  

Quite a number of parents were concerned about the news (or rumors) that university admission officers are not entirely happy with students from HK and Singapore taking Chinese in Group Two. ***
- 是真的, 八九年前已经有前辈话我知. 他的儿子在ivy league admission office 帮助挑学生的.
- 我自己只是让女儿按兴趣来選中文科的, 其他管不了, 再者中文是日常生活最有用处的, 也是血缘文化, 亦有颇大机会更上层楼, 孩子原意读是最受惠的.

The counselor did not answer our questions directly but said the students should now think twice before dropping Chinese to Language B by default.  ****
- 其实是每个语文也是有难度的, 如果孩子中文不太差, 学校又教得不赖, 冲冲改科也许不智的.

Two reasons were mentioned: Language B Chinese is getting more difficult and will require a lot of work under the new syllabus ***
- 应该是范围更广, 更多分析题, IS 学生一般分析力高, 不用怕, 做好字量,字词,standard level 的 workload 不会过重.

Although in the old days universities cared about IBDP points and points only, these days more and more admission officers may tend to think that those Chinese students who take Chinese language B at standard level are taking the easy way out, if not actually cheating****
- 外国鬼老是从来非常歧视黑头发学生考中文的, 对孩子同时的English (HL) 7分却视而不见的. 这点是他们因为他们见识少,水平唔高,心胸狭窄.
- "西瓜偎大边", 做人唔估计得过多, 话唔定几年后鬼老的想法是另一番光景,而将来孩子有否超级好工, 随时要靠科中文才可以食糊也未可知, 总之按正路行吧!  
- take Chinese B standard level, 肯定不是take easy way out.  因为只能挑三科higher level, 如果想念Economics, 主打科(HL) 当然是Maths, Economic, + English or History, 就算中文非常好(PG HL 7 marks),怕者也要让路, 只可考Chinese B (SL).  要证明中文高水平, 便参加其它中文公开试, 拿定张沙纸以防万一

annie.   

annie40

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That's what I think.  My neighbor's daughter (now at ISF Middle School) is a good friend of my daughter.  According to my daughter (she is now at another IS which is said to have a good Chinese program), ISF's Chinese is way more advanced.  This I believe is in accordance with the figures: about 80% of ISF first cohort got a bilingual diploma (only 30% or fewer of the students from my daughter's school were awarded a bilingual diploma last year).
****   ****   ****
ISF's Chinese 水平高, 课时长並非唯独关键, 反而是其curriculum 制作用心, 加快学习进度, 因而效果大增.  

是否billigual 非最重要, 如take Chinese A (SL) 只能得三四分, 喊到无谓. 倒不如考Mandarin B (HL) 全取七分, ISF 是希望孩子,不论Chinese A or Mandarin B, 取五分以上的. (both SL and HL).

poonseelai

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I recalled reading some papers about South Island advising students that some UK universities may not consider a Chinese student taking Chinese B as a second language if the student wants to do a language subject in the university. Recently I also discussed with the DP coordinator of my daughters' school about the Chinese issue. He mentioned that some UK universities are now more concerned about Chinese students taking Chinese B with a view to getting more points.

HKTHK

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It was fun reading up on all these research.  And the signs are positive.  But we do live in a real world that requires execution and ISF is like an expensive but promising experiment.  It will be a long time before anyone will know if their immersion program is successful.  As a parent, I do hope they succeed.

HKTHK

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I have met a parent who complains about too much homework since he thought ISF is a happy school.  Needless to say, he also think bilingualism would just come naturally because he is paying a lot of money for the education.  It always amazes me how some parents equate paying a lot of money with supporting your child's education.  Now that ISF can afford to be more selective in its students, I hope that they will select those parents who understand and support bilingual immersion.

annie40

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因為有人做壞規舉囉。
ibo  的指引清楚說，學校應該將學生案照水平分到合適的 language level。
如果學生中文好，點可能為拿高分特別降格讀 chinese b ？這是很不道得的做法，是學校的問題。
反正都降，是不是降去 chinese ab initio 更好，到時連堂也不用上 !
就是因為有學校走精面，讓大量學生讀 chinese b，結果出來的成績，是一大批學生 english a  只有 4-5 分，但 chinese b 有 7 分。
連累個 d 真正是 chinese b 的學生了。
****     ****     ****
Annie123,

据知大部分是学校想孩子读Chinese A, 因为Billigual Diploma 可以省令招牌啊. 特别是中文部, 简直是老师成绩单, 唔交多D Billigual Diploma 点见PTA.  其实大部分想读Chinese B 的是家长.

从前我也是认为部分家长老想走easy way, 是很不道得的想法, 现在愈接近選科的日子, 和挑选大学的专业学科, 愈明白家长和孩子们的選择,不是全是走精门的. 几年来看多了, 听多了, 老是今天的我,打到昨天的我, 总是前言不对后语, 大家觉得我不合逻辑, 也是合理的.

念中国语文的进度, 不像Maths, Science, 是很难有标准工时来制定目标的, 而关键不在于原来的基本语文水平, 反而在于最后两年IB 的冲刺, 领悟力, 文花修养等,  因此在十五岁middle school,是不容易评估往后的真正实力, 能否后发先至, 或是早发还是后力不继, 语文能力非常因人而异的.

这点说明一些LS 孩子, 原来中文科已经很弱, 中三四才转读IS 的, 没有必要说定他们的中文能力必然高, 强行要求他们take Chnese (A) ,

另外一些孩子是天生的理科人才, 志向亦是如此, 就算语文天份也高, 总要做事分急瑗先后, 不能放个勇字在胸前, 就物都要做 No.1, 据知ISF 的高中 Chinese A 是一星期三份作文, 每份3000 -4000 字, 是做到人都颠.  吃不消? 其他科点算好?  因此是非常非常敬重有志成为Billigual 的人士,和学校. 这边的家长, 对孩子念中文的甜酸苦辣是尝尽了, 不管Chinese A, Mandarin B, Chinese ab, 是前因莫问, 拿到好成绩已经很了不起.  time management 谈何容易呢?  

按学习时数来定断谁真正合适 考 Chinese A, Mandarin B, Chinese ab? 看似公平?  如果大家老实回答, 不难发现工时长,不代表学得对路, 更不一定水平高, 鬼老睇低中国人学中文, 黑头发有尽优势考高分,也是认为我们走精门, 心态上不是有点如出一切吗?

从来相信路是人行出来的, 但要否行,怎样走, 是各人選择,父母恐怕second language 累事是人之常情, (中文科, 挨!!, =痛苦的, 听了不少), French,Spanish, 学校 支援有限!

就是因為有學校走精面，讓大量學生讀 chinese b，結果出來的成績，是一大批學生 english a  只有 4-5 分，但 chinese b 有 7 分。
*****  曾看过Mandarin B (HL) 的试题,　我想LS 的中六生也不是手到拿来的可得7 分的, 正常IS 不可能有一大批學生 有水平念Chinese A , 再者理解到　ISF 的训练和要求后, 更明白普遍ＩＳ学生难以有本事和时间投入读Chinese A　了．我想学校和学生，不是走精面，而是量力而为吧！

各人有其分数，　ＩＢ　不是line curve 算式，　何解会连累d 真正是 chinese b 的學生了，谁是真，谁是假？

annie

p.s. This morning my friend asked if his son should move to take French ab in IB because of poor grade in Chinese.  The point is all languages  are difficult to achieve a good grade.  She should ask his son's opinion & check the PG in Mardarin B (SL) with teachers.    If really feel uncomfortable,  it's no harm to explore new language instead.





























Chinese A 的,  

annie40

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不管贫富学校，　少不了这些家长的，　是社会縮影啊！希望他们早点开窍吧，否则便白白浪费了孩子！　

常常想每间学校也是宝藏，　有的多，有的少，　多的是有宝拿不尽，只能選些最合适孩子的，唔好贪多得少，少的就更加唔好浪费时间系到投诉，拿得几多拿几多．

吓？　一点宝也没有！　肯定是眼大看过龙．　有的，有的！

annie40

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You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have.  顺势而行吧!

小女半途出家的中文都ok, 可想而知凡事不是没可能!  A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.  Think postive is the first single step.  Never let anyone discourage you, especially those involve your kids pursuing a goal or a dream.