再論曾榮光的追蹤研究

uncleedward

原帖由 mattsmum 於 09-8-5 13:51 發表
ssgc 的从容不迫是异数吧，中小学上下同心，不太赶做第一是了。

Educated parents do value 愉快學習，深信有甚麽樣的家長就有甚麽樣的學校。You would be more impressed when you see their orchestra compete in the school music festival., although they are forever no. 2 after DBS and SPCC has more or less caught up already.

uncleedward

Dear Eviepa

Just saw the news on TV covering 一眾"樣靚精神正"的狀元(特別是QC的及SPCS有聽障的同學)，我不願相信他們會比其他考生不快樂，即使是在他們讀書的日子。

tingtingting

Dear uncleedward and July,

Totally agree with what you said.  Leisurely joy is nothing compared to the joy from success out of tears and sweats.

mattsmum

聖士提反書院校長羅懿舒盛讚方浩文品學兼優，成為同學的榜樣，「最重要是培養學生學會學習的能力，讓他們既讀得，又玩得。人生當然不是為考試而活，更重要是從小燃起他們渴求知識的心，正如方同學一樣，愉快學習亦可以有優良的學業成績。」

mattsmum

not only orchestra, we were forever not no. 1 in our days. we were not even allowed to take 9 subjects.

uncleedward

Dear Stjoboldboy
(and for entertaining the possible old girl of Mattsmum)

A student showed me the following video. SSGC has the tradition of having the graduation classes produce and show a video in their last assembly before the HKCEE study break. I think you will agree it is a visual definition of 愉快學習。

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYOyHueHASI

Mattsmum, you're wrong about the HKCEE part. The class in this particular video did produce a 10A student.

[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 09-8-6 13:50 編輯 ]

mattsmum

i mean in the early 80s, not even 9 subjects were allowed

mattsmum

yes, all are happy gilrs, in youtube.

囝囝爸

愉快學習, 我想是多和學習成效掛勾, 不一定等量於功課, 深度, 學習量和方法, 各人能力資質不同, 方法有異.  當然科目興趣也有關係, 不過興趣可以培養, 也可由學習效能引發.

愉快不一定輕鬆, 不努力或辛苦.  比如嗜賭的可以日日打十多圈麻雀, 或我少年時和一班好友常在烈日下踢球幾小時, 都是十分辛苦的, 但都覺得快樂, 因興趣所致, 每一次都可以成敗不同.  但香港敎育, 不少層層疊疊關卡設成敗判定, 打擊信心, 容易造成學習不愉快.

以學習而言, 多年來我見到的印證也一樣, 成績好的學生或學校, 功課量, 學習量或課外活動都相對較多, 過程不一定輕鬆愉快, 但有成效後學生大多都會信心愉快.  學成後就業因成績優勢, 工作選擇, 適應和能力較佳, 收入好能在安定穩當下都生活較為愉快.  普通小學當較輕鬆, 學習和功課量少, 但要家長課外更有效幫助, 才追得上競爭進度, 不在重大的考試受到篩選淘汰挫折感, 才覺有效帶愉快心情前進, 但相對成功個案不多.  以上是以小學而言.

普通小學家長可能要孤軍作戰, 要得到相對成績, 和能家教合一的成效更彰的學習相比, 要付出更多.

小兒就讀成績好的私小, 中上成績的中學.  中小同學不知是否學習辛苦, 但所見大都學所有成下, 都覺信心愉快.  不愉快者, 都是一些少數望子成龍成鳯, 要更上層樓而不達的家長.

ChiChiPaPa

原帖由 eviepa 於 09-8-4 23:55 發表
... 閱讀課外書學英文就變為娛樂了。...

我也深信閱讀英文課外書是樂趣。前天，囡囡追看一本叫《My Hairiest Adventure》的書，而不願去睡覺。她說那本書是當天在學校借，而第二天就要還，她很想知道結局，所以想看完才去睡。

但正因為我相信英語閱讀是樂事，所以我認為孩子早日適應英語教學不是一件壞事，也不會是一件苦事。「愉快學習」不一定就要單靠母語去學習。

[ 本帖最後由 ChiChiPaPa 於 09-8-7 00:06 編輯 ]

eviepa

Uncle Edward,

討論至今，大家的觀點都是大同，而當中有少異。以下幾點想和你討論一下：

1. 所見所聞，名小學的孩子大都要花很多時間在學業上，自由時間比非名校為少。


2. 中學名校出產的平均較佳，我信。不過Elite in, elite out，這卻不能證明名校較普通學校更有效提升學生成績。多年之前，狄志遠倡導的增值指標才是評核學校效能的較佳方法。

3. 你認為努力讀書的學生都是快樂的，我同意。但有補充，要加上「自發」兩字，變成「自發努力讀書的學生都是快樂的」。被迫花很多時間在學業上卻是很痛苦的事。在我的觀察中，這些被迫讀書而不快樂的學生比比皆是。

4. 你認為不要為子女設定上限，但我覺得因應子女潛力而施教是重要的，如果是龍，sky is the limit；如果是蟲，就不要強求。

你很有氣魄，你將子女的limit定到比天高，是大鵬的一飛衝天。我的女兒能夠入U，我已經額手稱慶。不過我有一個理論，可以稱為「叫牌理論」。從前的中大，橋牌的風氣大概比現在盛得多，你可能也懂打橋牌。不過，肯定有很多網友不懂，所以略加解說。

橋牌分叫牌和打牌兩部分，有幸拿到好牌時就要「有風駛盡哩」，要叫到最高而能make到的level。叫得太低，拿不了應得的分數，平白浪費了難得的好牌；叫得太高，如果make不到，則不單不會加分，反要倒扣分數。所以因應所得的牌強與弱，作出適當的叫牌是成功的一半。

上天是不公平的，做學問的三大要素是不公平地分佈的：IQ、對學術的渴求、對成就渴求。正如上述，我見過不少的elites，上述三者皆高，而且，他們的素質，大部分在小學時己經流露，為了成就，苦讀、苦練在所不計，拿成績表時高人一等的成績就抵銷了所有的痛苦。我自己屬二流，我女兒則是平庸之輩。

對elites來說，名校裡面有很多elites。elite碰到elites，互相激盪，一起進步，確實是個很好的選擇。

elite的家長，確實可以曉以大義，要求可以很高。elites的deferred gratification pattern都很強，為成就，他們可以犧牲很多。

我這二流學生，憑自身的努力已可以打進同齡人口的頭10%，如果有一個很好的家長，要求我打進5%不會引起反感。

我女兒是平庸的人。論可以反映IQ的數學，我第一條做不來的數學習作在Form 2出現；她在小一已有大量數功課學要向我求救。現在她的數學能力有很大的改進，基本上小六及中一的功課自己都能應付自如。但IQ還是比我當年低。

論對學術的渴求，她一直都不高。從來不會主動看書尋求知識。尚幸是她每晚都愛聽我講通識，因此知識量也不差。

論對成就渴求，她從來對「成就感」的欲望都很低，就算連最愛的繪畫，她也只喜歡胡亂畫。從來不肯聽我的建議，抽些時間自己有系統地練習繪畫，因此影響了進度。

現在讀中學，對默書、測驗、考試，我完全放手。由於她對名列前茅不感興趣，認為沒有甚麼大價值，所以及每科在考試前溫他一會兒就去考了，取得六十幾分就很滿意了。

她的價值觀是，玩樂最有價值，讀書讀得好價值不大。現在如是，過幾年，她的價值觀大概不會變成精英。這大概是小孩子的典型。面對這孩子，我能怎樣？

我估計，讀高中時，我建議女兒每天功課後溫書一小時，她大概會照做。連同做功課，Work hard一、兩小時後，就可以 play hard幾小時，化算。我相信這努力足以送她入大學。

如果她功課後溫書兩三小時，她足可以做精英，但她會聽嗎？每天溫完書，稍作休息就得要睡覺，感覺會似坐牢。見得太多這樣的家長，命令平庸的兒女長時間溫書，結果子女連這一小時都不溫，基本上不怎樣讀書，因加得減。

只有成局的料子就只可以叫到四階，勉強叫到小滿貫，甚至大滿貫，一旦make唔到，扣分起來，好甘嫁。

eviepa

cherubic

My son will be in P.2 after the summer holiday.  He is studying in a private school which stresses on 愉快學習.  He is happy all the time.  But the problem is, as my husband always complains, he is too happy.  My husband thinks that we might have made a wrong choice.  My son is a boy who needs someone to remind him what he needs to be done.  For school homework, he can manage and finish it almost by himself (but the quality varies).  For test and dictation, he can prepare them by himself and always gets very good mark.

Given that he doesn't have too much homework and tests, etc, he gets a lot of free time.  I ask him to read one hour each night and he does what I told.  

The problem is, during this summer holiday, he has too many free time.  Therefore, I give him 2-3 tasks everyday.  However, he knows that he does not need to submit them to the school so he always finds excuses not to do it.

We do not know what will happen after 2 or 3 years when we could not control him.  Should he change to another school which is not too loose as his present school?  Any opinion is welcomed.  Thanks.      

原帖由 囝囝爸 於 09-8-6 15:40 發表
愉快學習, 我想是多和學習成效掛勾, 不一定等量於功課, 深度, 學習量和方法, 各人能力資質不同, 方法有異.  當然科目興趣也有關係, 不過興趣可以培養, 也可由學習效能引發.

愉快不一定輕鬆, 不努力或辛苦.  比如嗜 ...

samuel89

原帖由 cherubic 於 09-8-7 10:59 發表
My son will be in P.2 after the summer holiday.  He is studying in a private school which stresses on 愉快學習.  He is happy all the time.  But the problem is, as my husband always complains, he is to ...

我仔都系有太多空閒時間, 今年升中一, 本來學校有預備班上, 但因豬流感取消左....
我小學教育就俾晒責任學校同佢自己....我覺得小學階段唔應該逼小朋友去競爭考第一(其實小朋友自己都一定會想贏,如果逼到佢棄權,厭學就得不償失)....只要佢成績唔好脫節,攪到升中考唔到英中(呢條系我既底線)....我就俾佢自由發展...

uncleedward

I agree that we should be more relaxed towards children's academic performance at primary school level. Children's development at this age varies a great deal. 同一年級的大仔大女與細幾個月的細仔細女差異就更大。Asking too much from them at this stage may destroy their self confidence and lose them forever.

And dear cherubic, 成績好的學生暑假輕鬆一下正常不過。My kids never did anything academic in their summer holidays, not even in the one before Form 5. 資質好的學生懶懶散散也應可survive到初中。That's why I think Eviepa still has a year or two to buy.

However, if you really want your kids to do something during the summer holidays, I suggest they learn some soft skills such as drama or speech, or playing tennis, joining scouts, doing something crazy but interesting. They are far more important in my opinion in future to distinguish them from other bright kids who also have As flying in their transcripts.

[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 09-8-7 12:58 編輯 ]

cherubic

Thanks samuel89 and uncleedward for your opinion.

I ask my son to do some Maths problems and writing exercise during the summer holiday  because (1) for Maths - he already forgot what learnt.  He belongs to those kind of students who will forget everything when the test/ exam is over.  (2) for writing exercise - his teachers said his writing skill is poor.  Therefore I ask him to read books at home, and write a few lines about the books.  When I come back at night, he said he had read the books but he only wrote one line or a few words saying that he did not know how to do it.

My minimum requirment is that he should obtain a degree from U (Hong Kong or other places) in the future.  

I always do not know where he is in terms of academic level.  His school, which is an IB school, does not have exam for P.1 and P.2 students.  No books (except for Chinese Language) for us to follow.  I spoke to his teachers several times and they said that my son's level is up to P.1 (in the middle).

My husband and I received education in Hong Kong.  To us, we find it difficult to understand where my son is in the IB programme.  Our worries are eventually someone tells me my son is not up to (say) P.1 when he had already finished P.3.

囝囝爸

cherubic:

如果成績好, 應該可以了.  不過自己學校成績未能作準, 要參照學校比對其他學校成績, 可以以升中派位參考.  小兒升中成績在校算中下, 上到中學, 成績中上, 讀下來比某些地區小學名列前茅的同學還好.  不同小學程度有很大參差.  

我小朋友小一至小三都少功課, 他成績也過得去, 中游位置, 因學校整體成績好, 當時想上英中應無問題, 課外溫習和練習量也少, 暑期也少參加學習有關活動, 玩樂為主, 不過也有小量語文訓練.  

小兒小四時成績下滑, 不是退步, 是其他家長同學為升中早作準備.  經一番努力, 才追回安全位置.  

你小一兒子, 每天能閱讀一小時, 很不錯了.  語文學習有效, 從閱讀得益更多.  如覺孩子空餘時間太多, 每天安排半小時溫習或練習, 由你主導, 相信有幫助.  也可訓練他定時溫習習慣.  到上中學自主時, 習慣成自然, 當有幫助.  我自己在小兒初小輕鬆時, 未有做到這點, 上到高小, 要追上同學, 也沒有養成他中學定時溫習的習慣.

見不少親友, 為子女找到好學校, 家中自小作長期有恆學習, 量不用多, 家校互助互動下, 有效下都多見到好成績, 養成學習好習慣, 到中學時入讀好學校, 完全自主自學, 也不落後.  

以上只是個人體驗看法, 未能作準.

uncleedward

原帖由 eviepa 於 09-8-7 02:14 發表
Uncle Edward,

討論至今，大家的觀點都是大同，而當中有少異。以下幾點想和你討論一下：

1. 所見所聞，名小學的孩子大都要花很多時間在學業上，自由時間比非名校為少。


2. 中學名校出產的平均較佳，我信。不過Elite in, elit ...

打橋牌的樂趣和人生一樣，不管手中拿的是好牌爛牌，盡力施為就是。明明一手滿貫牌，只叫成兩個梅花。自己遺憾，陪你玩的也冇癮。手手如此，一夜下來不輸牌者幾稀，重要下次揾鬼陪你打。

According to your description, your daughter is more than ok already and should have no problem in studying at a better school. Then why don't just do it? Why try the seemingly impossible task of making your daughter feel proud of the CMI label? If your daughter can stick to your 1 hour a day schedule and make it to university to study what she wants, she is far more intelligent than most of the bright kids I have seen. And I have seen lots of them. Besides, maths and intelligence are actually not that important in the success of most people. Above average is good enough.

Last night, out of curiosity and testing your theory, I checked a certain xanga group of 大學一熱門學系 to see which schools the students came from? I could not find a single CMI graduate.

Dear Eviepa, 若你真的覺得自己是一個"二流學生"，那麽只有兩個結論:要麽你覺得女兒其實是千世一出，母語教育需要她彰顯，要麽你就覺得其它CMI學生的家長都不如你，you are determined to succeed where they have failed.

You told us to look for the causal relationship behind phenomena and advised us against just looking at the apparent correlation. Is it that the obvious correlation between EMIs and elite students can be put down just as simple as "elites in, elites out"?

As the well-known example of length of ladies' skirts correlated with stock market cycles indicates, maybe there is really a causal relationship after all. The Hawthorne effect in every management 101 book clearly tells us, not to mention labelling good and bad, just telling people they are being watched is already causing significant differences in performance of the people.

[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 09-8-7 19:39 編輯 ]