美國的小學教育

mattsmum

uncleedward 寫道:

Dear Song

Regarding your remark that “ I don't understand why the HK students are requested to 背 those not famous Chinese articles. 背唐詩 is FINE, but not those normal articles. What is the purpose???” I had the same question before. Then I put forward this question to a friend who is a senior executive at a well-known publisher producing such rubbish primary Chinese books.

The answer is simple. EMB has a prescribed list of standard Chinese characters a primary school student is supposed to learn. The publisher then has to hire a genius writer to write up articles to include these characters but at the same time to exclude those which EMB considers as out of syllabus.  That is why you never see articles by famous writers to be included in primary school Chinese books. That is why these text books are all so dry. I have yet to see a kid whose interest in Chinese is aroused by these text books. They are the perfect tools to keep students away from learning Chinese. The whole Chinese education has been buried by these text books.

very good observation,

not only that, they test your chinese standard by using just 26 or so articles.

they would ask you questions like" what is the main theme of xxx?". if you had never read this article, you will lose lots of marks.

lochan

My son has Chinese dictation that needs to 背. He remembers all the words correctly. The lesson is tough but I have mixed feelings. Wonder what's the use of it...

song

uncleedward

Your explanation is the first time I heard. Really?? It sounds crazy. Those unknown persons try to use new vocabs to write an article??? Anyway, all of us have no choice. Since we live in hong Kong and we don't want to pay, we still have to follow the rules of the game.

youma

Hi lochan,

1. The 2 questions you mentioned were mechanics questions in F4 Physics. Now they become typical P4 Olympic Math! Kids here seem smarter and smarter. Your son will show how to answer them fast when he is P5. Bear in mind HK is one of the smartest Oylmpic Math regions with many elites, maybe just behind China and Japan.

2. You may say I am still stubborn - I can't concur that HK's math training lags behind the Westerns in general.

3. I respect your experience overseas. However, while conceptual pure math are math, applied math is also math too. Applied or operational math can also be difficult and practical. If you want your son to be an actuary, engineer or CFA, HK-typed tough training is not a bad thing - in my opinion.

[quote]
lochan 寫道:
...

Two trains running at say 60kph assuming constant speed towards each other at a separation of 1 km. A roadrunner start running back and forth at 200kph between the 2 trains
Q1 After how long will roadrunner be hit by the train?
Q2 How far will he travelled before got hit?
(assume no need to accelrate and decclerate)
some who are smart takes maybe 5 or 10 mins to solve the problem, of course it took me much longer since I am not that smart. These kind of questions I assume very rare to appear in HK?

[quote]  

lochan

Youma,

Just can't believe how the standard has raised!!!!
Guess I am old hahaha!

"You may say I am still stubborn - I can't concur that HK's math training lags behind the Westerns in general"  
The reason I would not prefer local training is I want to have my kid thoroughly understand a concept before he move on to another new concept (he is not at the moment). Right now, local appraoch maybe good but teaching is too fast and does not allow enough time for children to digest the concept thoroughly. IT will still be okay if the child grew up to be an Engineer or even in actuarial science, but this kind of training is cannot lead him to becoming a pure mathematician. You may say not one in ten thousand kid grew up wanting to be a Mathematician, but I still belief there are better ways to build up a good foundation in math rather than to memorise formaulae and doing unnecessary amount of repetitive HW.

WYmom

lochan,

Agree with you.  I believe that learning Maths concepts well is important, it does not necessarily lead the kid to become a mathematician, engineer, accountant or so and so, I believe this is necessary for training the kids in logical thinking and analysing information, which is important for doing any kind of jobs.  

I don't agree that one does not learn Maths well because he/she does not like Maths.  I would say it is the other way round, one will like Maths if he/she learns it well in an interesting way.

judy

To achieve good ranking in Competitions means you need to cover a lot of topics and be able to complete the paper fast.

Lochan,

我引用之數學科學測試，在幾十個國家舉行，目的是測試該國之數學科學能力(不是Competitions)。我也不知怎樣進行(也不必知)，總之這是大家認同之標準，低分總不是好事。

而事實上，香港小學數學教科書，也不是抽離現實，例如，時間問題，看似簡單，也涉及了12進位和24進位。錢幣問題，却是小數加減的前奏，可先量操場，再計周界，評估門的長度、書的長度用之單位，再教單位之運用和意義。一步一步的，從實際問題到真正之數學問題，編得不錯，教得怎樣是另一回事了。

有才能而讀數的，是非常非常浪漫之人 (i think it is not romantic at all - look at the movie "Beautiful Mind", touchy but scary to some extent but only a hint of romantism in it!

我估你唔知"浪漫"之真義。

My son has Chinese dictation that needs to 背. He remembers all the words correctly. The lesson is tough but I have mixed feelings. Wonder what's the use of it...

有時，50步笑100步都會令人happy, 有冇興趣將令郎搬過来我家cheap cheap 私校，默書唔使背(默老師每課佈置十多個生字咁上下)，默書測驗唔使計分，咁你呢個求學不是求分量嘅人。

That is why these text books are all so dry. I have yet to see a kid whose interest in Chinese is aroused by these text books. They are the perfect tools to keep students away from learning Chinese. The whole Chinese education has been buried by these text books.

uncleedward,

依家多咗一樣嘢"keep students away from learning Chinese"，就係每曰一篇。不知是不是人有我有的心理，還是校長覺得好正，我間cheap cheap 私校也買了這個package。去年好點，看唔看學校唔理，今年，那個班主任猛叫阿二去看，激死我。

我最唔明就係，書商出呢的垃圾出来，學校一定要去買的嗎？市面應有更好的選擇啊！

Vernique2005

去翻教數學的問題﹐我基本上是同意LOCHAN 的說法的﹐Judy
說的數學學科測試﹐我也聽過﹐頭五名﹐吾記得真正排名﹐是﹕
Singapore/Japan/Korea/Taiwan/HK

接著便是我的家鄉溫哥華了﹗(哈哈﹗這是理所當然的﹐因為我們有了以上五個地方的移民﹗哈哈哈﹗)

但請記住﹐這是中小學的排名﹐現在LOCHAN 想說的是到底這個這麼高的排名到大學後會發生什麼事。

最後是﹐讀數學﹐讀電腦﹐讀工程的﹐最好的都是在美國﹐那個本來排名勁低的地方。 為什麼呢﹖這真是一個好問題﹐到底是美國(或北美)在小時候的教育差﹐還真的是香港人太浪漫所以放棄數學﹖

我所知的是﹐當香港的小朋友在做題目的時候﹐北美的孩子年年去科學館﹐當香港的小朋友去做題目的時候﹐北美的孩子可能是再想到底有什麼方法用刀切麵包﹐切最少的次數﹐但分得最多份﹐但香港的小朋友還是在做題目的時候﹐北美的孩子可以已經在出題目﹐一人出一題來考考對面班的同學(這個好玩的﹐你真的難想象孩子可以為了令人家覺得自己的題目好難而想去千奇百怪的題目﹐哈哈﹗

到考試時﹐TOO BAD﹗ 美國的孩子可能連做都沒心機做﹔老師﹐ 點解我地今天不能出外面打籃球啊﹖這份PAPER 為什麼要這麼長﹖ 可以不做嗎﹖(我不是說這是好的態度﹐但班小朋友真的會這樣問你。。。。。。)

然後呢﹖香港的小朋友﹐厲害的會說﹕又是大顯身手的時候了﹐不厲害的會說﹐死期又到了。。。

到最後﹐既然是那邊那些從小玩到大的會有興趣去研究數學﹐我說的不是中學﹐而是上研究院﹐甚至變成教授﹐ 但香港的人呢﹐不是很厲害嗎﹖為什麼不去研究數學﹖難道數學在中學後就叫學完嗎﹖ 那些讀數學的是浪漫主義﹖那不如跟我一起讀英國文學啦﹗

這不是浪漫不浪漫的問題﹐是可悲不可悲的問題。。。。
當很多人說﹐讀數沒前途﹐讀數沒出色﹐在身邊的孩子會感受不到嗎﹖ 但如果你的才能真的是在數學呢﹖我就親眼看見很多例子﹐有家歸不得。。。。你在香港出身﹐想當數學教授﹐移民啦﹗ 你有興趣R&D﹐ 在香港找不到工﹐去美國殖谷啦﹗

讀數的真的很窮嗎﹖這也是我聽過很好笑的笑話。。。。
找找看﹐現在超大型的公司﹐有那一間沒請數學家﹐Wall Street 的大財團﹐London 的保險公司﹐ 殖谷的IT 公司﹐ 連我們常見的Coca-Cola, MacDonald's 在行政上都請不少。。。

翻查一下﹐你會發現數學家好多時是好專業的﹐但當你問他﹐喂﹗你做什麼時﹐他會說﹕高度機密﹗ 哈哈﹗

judy

最後是﹐讀數學﹐讀電腦﹐讀工程的﹐最好的都是在美國﹐那個本來排名勁低的地方。 為什麼呢﹖這真是一個好問題﹐到底是美國(或北美)在小時候的教育差﹐還真的是香港人太浪漫所以放棄數學﹖

Vernique2005,

不是香港人太浪漫所以放棄數學，而是香港人太現實所以放棄數學。

可以解釋：

1. 美國之名大學，只是少數，但却集全國、以至世界之精英，香港無得比。但平均水準，香港大學之水準，和美國比，一定over average (唔好叫我prove, 我係咁估)。

2. 香港之學生，到外國讀書，有所成就的，其實唔少 (不要忘記，以往香港之精英，不是讀醫，就是讀法律)

3. 社會問題 (你在這里久了，應了解到的病幾深)。

4. 政府財政、政策之傾斜，政府將賣地收入，倾斜到個別利益團體身上(太多,唔講，我自己都是間接受益者)。比着你，你都希望将来安安穩穩有固定收入吧？R&D，邊有人做。

st.bintai

Edward 寫道:
I had my primary and seconday education in HK.  I then went to UK to receive my F.6 and university education.

From my experience, I feel that HK (follows UK style) and UK primary and secondary education is good.  Actually, I think the best secondary schools are in UK.  UK's top universities are also good.  However, after graduation and to post graduate education and research, I think US universities are better.  The reasons are no only on the learning method but also on the fact that US government assigned a lot of funds and resources to their universities to carry out research so as to keep US at the top in technology.

咩英文來咖   Post-grad  

咩 had eduation    咩  I then went  

咩 no only    咩  to their universities ..to...so as to....    

呢 d 係英文來咖   

st.bintai

lochan 寫道:
I remeber when I went to Canada to study grade 13 after HKCEE after receiving one of the best local education in HK, my Math is basically no.1 for the whole school.

Unfortunately, when I got into Univ., the first year Math core course almost got me killed since the whole course is about fundamentals, prove theorems and deriving formulae from first principal. I think my fundamental learnt from HK local education system was very poor.

乜呢 d 有係英文來咖   after HKCEE 又 after receiving...呀  

got into uni.....   英文來咖    got me killed....

prove theorems and deriving ....

st.bintai

st.bintai 寫道:
[quote]
lochan 寫道:
I remeber when I went to Canada to study grade 13 after HKCEE after receiving one of the best local education in HK, my Math is basically no.1 for the whole school.

Unfortunately, when I got into Univ., the first year Math core course almost got me killed since the whole course is about fundamentals, prove theorems and deriving formulae from first principal. I think my fundamental learnt from HK local education system was very poor.

乜呢 d 有係英文來咖   after HKCEE 又 after receiving...呀  

got into uni.....   英文來咖    got me killed....

prove theorems and deriving ....

TWMa

EMB has a prescribed list of standard Chinese characters a primary school student is supposed to learn. The publisher then has to hire a genius writer to write up articles to include these characters but at the same time to exclude those which EMB considers as out of syllabus.  That is why you never see articles by famous writers to be included in primary school Chinese books. That is why these text books are all so dry.

原來係咁! 我怎麼看現今香港小學的中文 Text book, 就怎麼覺得彆扭, 夠觸目驚心的了. 而且, 不只是 "dry" 的問題, 看看這是什麼語法---
我們高興在拍手
最怕孩子將來還要和我爭辯 "老師是這麼教的"!

TWMa

在這裡說什麼 "英文來咖", "外國學既英文呀"...
大家會比較認同這才叫  WHAT A PITY !

st.bintai

WYmom 寫道:
[quote]
Vernique2005 寫道:
Dear youma:

From my knowledge and information from friends, the highschool math standard in Canada is certainly not that high.  Many highschool students from HK manage to get into top U easily because they defeat many Canadian students in math/science.

However, this situation begins to change once you enter university, especially in the math oriented programs.  I had friends from the Combined Honour Program at UBC (computer science and pure math).  They said that even though you still see many Chinese in the class, the best students are from the super genius schools in Russia and Germany.  The same situation holds true in the PhD computer science program at the U of T.  These students come to math class without taking notes at all.  They manage to "THINK" and "UNDERSTAND" the math as the professor gives his/her lecture........

They also said that the biggest difference between the education in HK and those in Eastern Europe is that the best schools in Europe would give students just one question to think for a whole week, while the best schools in HK may give students 50 questions to practice every day.  As a result, students from HK do calculation very quickly, yet they may find it difficult to write proofs and theorems on their own. (Of course, it's often the reverse for the foreigners... hahah!)

I guess there are advantages and disadvantages to both programs.  It's a matter of preferences and educational beliefs.  Of course, being raised in Canada myself, I'd say that I HATE KUMON!!!! (well...many people in HK may go against me, I think.. hehe!)

This is very true.  I guess the HK way is teaching kids how to calculate Maths problem as quick as possible, but the western way is teaching them how to do a Maths problem using many different ways.  By doing this, they are exploring the beauty of Maths, encouraging creativity and understand concepts and theories very thoroughly.  By doing this, kids are developed to have much higher analytical skills and creativity in future.

[/quote]

講來講去都唔知講乜    

問題係香港冇天然資源, 點樣比大學做研究, 大學教育點定位 ?  30 - 60 年代, 香港都係物資集散地, 唔會有人得閒發夢做研究, 大學就定位以人民及基礎科學    邊會有識得鑽研既好教授教你點諗野 中小學就咪係得個背字而唔識教思考方法囉   佢只會教你點解決(同當時經濟環境有關) 70 - 80 年代起飛, 早有錢個班 2 少爺 或太子女出去放洋, 而香港班叻仔又多左讀 u, 20- 30 年後而家佢地喳旗先可以話改革, 有無留意到而家小學開始靜靜地起革命, 喳 fit 人係咩年代既人 ?

讀左咁多書, 唔好睇野淨係識 comment     如果你唔係靠屋企比錢你出去讀書, 問下你自己, 你有冇本事係當時既香港讀到大學 ??

美國點解係教育好似咁

st.bintai

lochan 寫道:
Youma hi,

Maybe I am not one of those as quoted from your Math professors!

I grew up doing tons of "gaijin" math 234, 666, 456 333 etc. I also took Add. Math in F.5 but I recall I can prove theorems without actually understand why. I was trained to be fast and effiecient in exams and during that time, I see nothing wrong about it as everyone was doing the same thing!

I thought I was really good at calculus and algebra, therefore I took these two core courses in year one Univ.. Then my nightmare began... The approach is totally different! All assignments and tests are with Qs that does not have definitive answers. All Qs require you to think hard and thoroughly understand the basic concepts. I then realized my 11 years of math education in HK did not provide me enough in this regard.
I did get A on cal. section in A-math and a B in modern Math! I agree a lot of causcasions are still very poor in Math. Point is those who are not interested in math, they will take art courses and don't waste time on this anymore. Therefore, I am facing those who are supposed to be very good at math (and I am supposed to be good in HK standard) but there is a gap in terms of mindset and approach. I did manage to get an A in both courses but with so much effort made though! This was the time I start to realise the shortcomings of traditional HK education system.

有冇搞錯, 你連 math 係乜都未知就揀 math, 撞左板就話香港教育制度, 你係咪有病    係咪唔記得食葯

st.bintai

judy 寫道:
lochan,

如果只論數學之教育，不能說美國之那一種比香港優勝。學好數學要有两方面，一方面是數學本身，這當然包括solve 实際問題，但數學之精髓，却是for fun，solve 实際問題的數學，是應用數學 。一方面是形式(這方面要操)美國中小學數學不好(這在很多國際性測試可知)，就是缺之操練之故。

香港之數學編得不錯，幾年前，聽說以色列也採用新加坡之教科書。但在香港，讀數學的，很多是不喜欢數學，不喜欢數學，又怎能學得好。我的侄兒有數學天オ，但這幾個小朋友，将來會讀數嗎？我想不會，香港地找食之困難，生活之無保障，只有港人才知。有才能而讀數的，是非常非常浪漫之人。

信報林行止介紹，一個地區之經济發展和學生數學科學之水平有很高之關係，香港學生數學科學之水平名列前矛，本是好形象，這表示香港将有一批好的R & D 力量。但香港投放於科研之開支，却比外國少得多，只佔投资之0.5%，而曰本却是3.5%。

其實，香港之教育政策不錯，包括數學、語文政策，教育改革(如果冇教改，你個仔可能要讀貴很多之國際學校)。香港之問題，是社會問題。

AGREE    個哥哥切未食葯  

lochan

I 'm just a victim of local education system. THAT WAS HOW I WAS TAUGHT MATH IN HK, I don't think that's my fault since I follow every student's footstep and done everything "right" in terms of what was expected as a student in HK and did OK in HKCEE.

Anyone who ask me to take drugs are the ones who need to take drugs, although as a civilised person I rarely ask someone to take drugs.

HuiTung

Don't be upset lochan.  Actually the one that needs drug is me when I look at that person's login name.  It makes me sick!