local school should adopt putonghua as teaching medium

wicked

1. cantonese is one of the least evolved dialects of the chinese language. less evolved means less aesthetically appreciated, which is why many mandarin speakers resent the cantonese background accent. cantonese actually sounds closer to vietnamese and thai than mandarin in terms of pronouciation. the same is the cantonese ppl's physical features which tend to be of a bigger jaw, darker skin tone and a stout physique.  cantonese ppl's mental ability is also near the low end of the spectrum across china despite the cantonese area claims to be the 2nd most educated after the changjiang delta area(near shanghai), the IQ score of which ranks top, meaning even education cannot help if the gene pool quality lags too far behind. the slow evolution of cantonese is due to the warm weather and mild seasonal changes. this is also why most of the poor countries are near the equator whereas the most affluent are more on the north(in the scope of northern hemisphere).
2.there is a gap between written form of chinese and the spoken cantonese, rendering the learning process of the language less efficient if the teaching medium is in cantonese while the text books are in formal chinese.

in the coarse of evolution, the less efficient will be replaced by the more efficient; the less aesthetically appreciated will be assimilated and replaced by the more appreciated.

wicked

all international schools are teaching chinese in mandarin, why local school choose otherwise?

the pronouciation of cantonese is close to the dialects spoken in central china 2000 years ago -- meaning the aesthetic level of Cantonese now is about the same as that prevalent in central china 2000 yrs ago, in other words, Cantonese has evolved very slow and thus sounds less pleasant to those with more developed aesthetic sense. this is why many mandarin speakers resent the cantonese accent.

mandarin is probably the most evolved chinese dialect, as having been subjected to influences(or blend-in) and scrutiny (or competition) from various dialects (mainly from the north and central) across china over history. the mandarin spoken by the beijing residents is probably the most pleasant to ears, thanks to the long history of beijing being the state capital(more than 1000 years). a capital city is where the elites congregate thus rendering more social selective pressure on the refinements of various aspects of human behaviour.

wicked

well, all up to how its taken.
for example some might get offended instead of just finding it interesting.

for me its enlightening. the implications and elaborations from "the least evolved" are folds, such as why cantonese culture is still not well regarded by other parts of china despite the economic affluence in the cantonese area and why cantonese ppl are the least popular group in places like universities and armies in the mainland.

wicked

which is why "wicked". i conspire to split up china. how is that liked?

as expected, there will be ppl jumping into racism right away. i merely pointed out the inconvenient facts. like it or not, cantonese culture in general is not well regarded throughout chinese history. racism is an easily abused word. i dont like snake but i have yet to hear speciesism.  

why are the business setups around the pearl river delta more on the low end like toys and garments manufactoring whereas those around the changjiang river delta are more skills and techo oriented? coz the manpower there can cope with the demand. why are most of the major infrastructures and projects conducted in the cantonese area in the last few decades masterminded by non-cantonese chinese? why are there hardly any notable intellectuals or administrators of cantonese origin in chinese history?

the economic affluence in the cantonese area in the last half century is merely out of good luck and head start rather than cantonese culture having an edge. hk's take off happened in 1960s after the influx of immigrants and capitals from other parts of china(esp those around the shanghai area) between late 40s and 50s due to power change in the mainland. after the take off, more talents from around the world have been drawn in to help built hk an international city. without shanghai's fall, hk would have stood a much smaller chance to become what it is today.

enough history. back to the topic.

i simply dont see any advantage in clinging to a less evolved language when there is clearly a better option.

hk is the only chinese community in the world which is still teaching in cantonese.  let alone the backwardness of the language, the inconsistance between the spoken form and the written form simply taxes on the learning process. how can that be an efficient way of learning? another obvious fact.

singapore didnt start off as a mandarin community but its leaders were wise enough to adopt mandarin half century ago as one of its official languages. they also adopted the simplified form of written chinese. students there in general have better writing skills than hk students in both chinese and english. judging by the physical features, most of the chinese ppl there are of similar southern chinese look as the cantonese, so it should be nothing to do with any genetic advantage.

at the time of hk's rise, competition facing hk wastn that keen. the disavantage of cantonese was probably less obvious. with china's open up, a very different picture.

if ppl feels more comfortable to indulge in a hate agenda behind this topic, fine with me.

wicked

making a friendly guy sick -- that must be potently wicked enough, unless the friendly guy simply too vulnerable if not of a twisted psyche? i fancied “wicked” after encountering a “Mighty” who turned out more like miserable.

no need to take my comment so personally. the world is made up of differences which we make judgement upon. there are always differences between different social groups. by addressing differences we come to know our origin and our path, which might help us become more openminded for a bigger picture. i didnt say all cantonese ppl are ugly nor northern chinese all good looking. its like a general comparison between spectrums, if we take the average, an northern chinese is easily more attractive than an average cantonese. maybe politically incorrect to say but unfortunately true.

judging by ur understanding of evolution, we are hardly on a close level for a meaningful discussion. no intention to belittle ur ability but maybe more to do the gap between our exposures. but then i dont owe anyone an education. there is more than u want to know about evolution on the internet.

There are two parts making who we are: gene(innate) and exposure (natural enviroment:food and weather, social enviroment: people). gene determines one’s potential and exposure affects to what extent we can reach our potential. gene respresents the survival wisdom crystalized from the accumulated exposures our ancestors had over the course of evolution(which is of billions of years).This is also why Confusius said “bu2 xiao4 you3 san3, wu2 hou4 wei2 da4”. if u cant pass on ur gene, u would waste all the efforts ur ancestors had made. being so important, how do we read gene? in a hip term, ur face and other physical features are like the facebook of ur gene and u read it by intuition. ur sense of aesthetics is an important part of intuition, which is why we can almost decisively tell one is more attractive than another even in a first encounter despite it might be much less easy to rationalize why so by logic. this is also why new born babies prefer to look at pictures of good looking ppl.

i always wondered why black ppl looks less appealing than white ppl ever since i first got to see their pictures when i was a kid. both black and white ppl are foreign to me so it shouldnt be cultural bias. as i got older, i also began to notice that southern chinese look less attractive than northern chinese. this “why” had always been in the back of my head.

its not easy to conduct scientific research on relations between IQ and look. but nonetheless there have been some data out. the most recent one is done by london school of economics based on a 6yr study over quite a big sample. the study suggested a positive co-relation between IQ and physical attractiveness. news about it is available on internet. it was actually on the hk local newspaper last week.

this is a website showing IQ by country worldwide.
http://www.worldmaps.co.uk/free-world-maps

i m amused by some of the figures (eg australia) but nonetheless there is a geographical pattern esp with respect to north-southwards. u can make ur own judegment. with that pattern in mind, guangdong and hainan’s low IQ ranking (both below 100 if i dont recall it wrong) in china makes perfect sense to me. i came across the ranking data on a mainland forum last year but havent been able to find it again. but then for those with a victimised mentality, if its easier for u to take my words as anti-cantonese fabrication, suit urself.

education in finland is said to be superb but if u put some black africans there for upbringing and schooling, more likely than not, their outcome will still be on the low end of the spectrum no matter how hard they try. i guess thats the same reason for guangdong being the 2nd most educated province yet still with a low IQ ranking.  

another fact is, genetically cantonese are more related to vienamese than those along and above the changjiang river, which is why cantonese look more like vienamese than northern chinese.

as with my own experience, if i run into a tall, fair toned and refined looking chinese in hk, more likely than not, he or she is NOT of cantonese origin.

equality is an ideal but there is always a gap between reality and ideal.  reality does bite.

btw, i dont consider Dr Sun Yat Sen a great leader. he was made the 1st president out of political convenience. he is an empty talker, not well regarded by many who had once worked closely with him. more less politically biased facts have been out. i dont find him honourable at all. china might have done better this last 100yrs without him messing up china’s fate. simply becoz ppl like him  had such an impact on china, he should be discussed objectively or even critically rather than to be glorified.

i would rather u have quoted Liang Qi-chao. he is talented, well read and far more respectable both as an intellectual and as a person. he was one of the few who were against Sun Yat Sun’s revolutionary move. he believed that true change to a nation can only be brought by the enlightenment of mind rather than by blood and force.

wicked

i m no expert on linguistics either. its not easy to explain in terms of aesthetics. to avoid bias, try listening to foreign langauges spoken in the tropical and those in the north, see if u could notice a pattern in terms of pleasantness to ears.

wicked

i tend to believe ideas and forms and behaviours which are more in line with our aesthetic sense are more efficient.

wicked

becoz the rest of the chinese communities have adopted mandarin, HK should do otherwise to stand out. by the same token, hk should opt for a different foreign language instead of english coz  simply too many out there are learning english.  

language is not primarily for communication’s sake but more for posing as a signiture.

wicked

another quick jump to conclusion. racism is easily associated whenever the discussion concerns racial diferences.

anthropology was neglected or even suppressed for some years after 2nd world war coz the bad experiences of holocaust and eugenics. but with the world getting more mobile, we are open to more oppotunities to encounter differences and this actually has helped ppl become more self-aware and acceptive of facts. ppl's attitude towards racial differences is also less radical than before. anthropology is now a popular subject, esp together with the devolopment of molecular biology and psychology.

wicked

in the 2000yrs of china as a unified country, the centre of governance was never made below the changjiang river, and there has been little(if not none) history about southerners from below changjiang river ruling over the north. but central china was ruled by northen tribes from mongol and manchu for a significant period of time in the last 1000yrs. i guess that says a lot.

wicked

guangzhou was made an open port for trade with west and hong kong given to the british about 150yrs ago after china losing the opium war. this connection to the west resulted in the first big wave of chinese emmigration to the west from guangdong and consequently brought new ideas and progressive influences to the cantonese area. a significant percentage of revolutionists at turn of last century were of cantonese background. however, despite cantonese played a big part in the beginning of the revolutions to overthrow the manchu empire, their roles in the later governance of the country were almost ignorable. governance requires more sophisticated and long term planning than revolutions.

wicked

its intriguing to notice that ppl in hk embrace english with so much enthusiasm, yet another equally (if not more) pleasant and popular language closer to their own mother tongue has been treated with much despise and even hostility. perhaps its to do with the less favoured political system and the backwardness in the mainland. understandable in a way but language comes and goes in history. by clinging to an obviously less efficient and less popular language will only do more harm to hk than good.

wicked

guangzhou has a township history over 2000yrs. despite being the 3rd largest city in china and blessed with the more progressive western influence much earlier than other big cities, the tertiary education in guangzhou still remains 3rd rated at best. bright students and top schoolars are less than willing to come for study and work there despite the money prospect might be more attractive. i guess that says a lot about the regard for cantoense culture.

its indisputable that cantonese culture and the dialect is of littel significance in hk's rise. put the other factors(e.g. legal and administrative system and english literacy from the colonial history) to other chinese coastal cities, more likely than not, they could have done even better. hk’s take-off happened in 1960s thanks to the influx of the non-cantonese immigrants in the 50s. and cantonese was only made official in 1970s -- and i wonder why it wasnt mandarin. the british gentlmen are wellknown for their cultural insignt (and crookedness) and they  must know the cons and pros of mandarin and cantonese well. only a fool would believe its to do with their respect for cantonese culture.

in its 150yrs short history, hk has benefited a lot from both china’s misfortune and take-off. there seems to be a sense of exclusiveness to hk’s success bcoz of that. perhaps that explains the mentality of some hk ppl into thinking that clinging to cantonese is a way to further highlight hk’s uniqueness from the rest of china. if such mentality also plays a part in hk’s policy making, hk’s doom day is counting close even faster.

[ 本帖最後由 wicked 於 11-1-26 18:16 編輯 ]

wicked

appreciating ur feedback and support too. good to know not everyone takes me negatively despite of my negative sentiment against cantonese. actually i dont mind being taken as a racist. i think racism is as natural as judging ppl based on look and i believe in “look is more than skin deep”. as by someone’s words:”racism is inherent, undeconstructable but can be controlled”. racism taxes on life so shouldnt be encouraged. exposure and open discussion help reduce racism. that said, i dont mind pricking those sanctimonious narrow mindsets who cant wait to finger point as if they were at a moral higher ground.

i learned about hk’s history mostly thru media. i see ur point and good sense there. a relative of mine was a teacher before. she said some posh private primary schools did teach chinese in mandarin at her time(80s).

i wonder if the “red riot” in late 60s might have played a part in the goverment’s later decision to make cantonese official instead of mandarin, as a way or statement to curb hk’s connection with the red china.

hk has adopted the 3-3-4 system as in china but there seems hardly any talking about changing the teaching medium to mandarin. i tend to think its more to do with attitude and will than execution difficulty.

wicked

hi Uncle Edward

wow. i m truly flattered -- no sarcasm here. i was expecting this thread to have ended before ur post.

good to know u r not cantonese, in one way i could assume less biased opinions there and less worry for offending u, and in another as a validation for my long held belief: non-cantonese chinese's mindsets are more refined and sophisticated . hope u dont mind. i do know generalization does not necessarily apply to individual case.

thank you very much for ur very well informed feedback. truly appreciating it. but i think i will need a bit more time to digest all of it esp the rather academic bit and hopefully can come back with some meaningful arguments.  i look forward to being enlightened more so hope this wont be ur last post.

i dont have a background in anthropology either, just having the impression its a subject tracking man's history and a lot of findings are based on comparing racial differences and differeces between man and the great apes.

as mentioned in my previous post, there are two parts making who we are: gene and exposure. i think gene is more of a product of nature's selection process whereas exposure more of man's effort.  i dont think man can ever win over nature. that is why i value the quality of gene pool more than anything else.

i think as long as man has to make judgement based on differences and different social groups  segregated by bordres, there will always be racism.  we are all shaped by our expereicens and social expericiences shape our empathy, the ability to think from others perspective. empathy is the basis to moral standard and values , so ultimately the social system. different social groups have different empathy levels(thus different social systems), which gives rise to different stereotypings. stereotyping is where racism stems from. is stereoptyping biased? surely yes; is it totally wrong? no.

take the example of stereoptyping between hk ppl and mainlanders. becoz of hk’s prosperity, ppl in hk has long enjoyed a sense of betterment over the less fortunate mainlanders, as apparent from the negatively stereotyped mainlanders often portrayed in hk media( which might have played a part in hk ppl’s attitude towards mandarin). but mainlanders also have their treat back. here is a brief summary of what i have come across on internet: loud, rude and uncultured (even if well-educated), obsessed with food and money, less attractive physically, less interesting, less capable of sophisticated taste and intellectual depth; their less developed sense of honour makes them less trustworthy and easily resort to short-cut behaviours such as cheat, abuse and vulgarity for short term gain. their sense of humour is simplistic, often vulgar and witless. some of the attributes are actually from foreigners who have had experiences with both cantonese ppl and northern chinese. offensive may it be, its not all wrong based on my own experiences here. one particular cantonese respondent in this thread seems to fit some of the descriptions quite well. i should thank her for being so helpful to validate my points so well too. huan1 ying2 dui4 huao4 ru4 zuo4.  

more evolved means more refined, ie having survived thru a more stringent selection process, resulting in more changes in the genes as comparing to the origin. complacence in the tropical becoz of warm weather slows down the evolution process.

more pleasant pronouciation is the result of a more energy efficient sound producing path. do u watch 6 billions others? comparing the facial muscle involvement between a black and a white's talking.

i will stop here for now. will go bak to my blog for a review first. dont quite remember what i put down there. havent been here for a long time.

i might have clinged to some ideas but evolution is an on going thing for me just like every netizen.  

till next time

wicked

hi eviepa

sorry for late response. “need a bit more time” becomes a long halt.

还道您是位妈妈，原来也是爷们儿，还好起哄看打架。儒雅如我，您看怕得失望了。再次谢谢您的鼓励和仗义. 可抬举我受不起，不小心摔着，那能好受？更乐意听您的不同意见，所谓进步源于距离。您可能是位mr nice,我倒不太在意情面，但自以为也算明理，不会无故失礼于人, 对不识趣的只是礼尚往来而已。

most of my opinions are based on my own observations and bits and pieces from media. i was trained in the life science field which might have helped pave the way but i dont see the inevitable connection in between. 在学者眼里，我的看法大有可能被认为是歪论. actually i have had arguments with ppl who are more knowledgeable in the relevant fields yet i m still to be convinced that i m wrong.

civilization starts from social interaction and is a process of refinement and sophistication which is guided by aesthetics. the meaning behind aesthetics is energy efficiency. the more stringent the selection process, the more energy efficient the outcome, which is also more in line with our sense of aesthetics. aesthetics is empathy related. a more developed empathy level supports a more advanced social system, the culture of which is more appreciated aesthetically thus more affluent. take the example of democracy, its a product of the more progressive western culture. the whole world is trying to adopt democracy. the west had tried to impose the western democracy system in africa after the 2nd world war. result? complete failure. why? becoz the empathy level in the african society is not as well developed as in the west to support such a more evolved system. its like a tall guy’s shirt, it looks nice on the tall guy but if u r short, better wait till u grow into a similar height.

there has always been debates over racial differences esp in the respect of intelligence. there is probably not yet a concensus over the defination on intelligence. and science is yet to define wisdom. there are different IQ test tools and the results are not always consistent. ppl gifted with creativity and artistic talents could score well below average. i think 倪匡 mentioned in his newspaper column that his scored really low in these tests and one of his buddies scored sth like double of his but the gap hardly affects their friendship and interaction and no one can say he is dumb.

yes, IQ is affected by exposure and can change over time. so i wouldnt say IQ test is an accurate and reliable tool to measuare intelligence but maybe thats the best available at the moment. both neural science and psychology are new subjects of probably less than 100yrs old (judging by the fact that freud is called the father of psychology and he passed away less than 100yrs ago). for the  average lot, their IQ scores probably can be considered as a crude reflection of their intelligence that is more valued in a civilized society. many corporate companies include aptitude tests in their recruitment process. these aptitude tests come from IQ test tools so IQ test must be of some good value there.

if all ppl are really equal, we would not see this universal advocacy for equality. just like if u already have rice everyday, u wouldnt aspire to having rice everyday.  equality is an ideal of humanity, just like we aspire to ultimate wisdom and kindness. unfortunately reality is far from ideal, which is why we have religion as an integral part of all civilizations across the world, with equality and altruism highly regarded in all influential religious teachings.

america is a melting pot with a wide range of ethnicities. when we see the black neighbourhood contrasting so much to the white neighbourhood, is that really just the black ppl do not work as hard? so just their own fault to be blamed?  i thought thats an easier(if not hypocritical) excuse than trying to find out why they look different physically and what such physical differences translate into in the context of civilization.

i like ur example about basketball player. i was going to talk about it even before u mentioned it. i will come back on that when i have a bit more time(hopefully not another long halt).

CNY is a wrong time to get involved in forum discussion. i had disfunctional experiences with forum discussion before which affected my real life. becoz of that i have learned not to let strangers on internet take priority of my schedule. i wont be able to cover every anti-argument raised in this thread but surely i will write again.

btw wish u and family good health and happiness in the new year.

till next time

wicked

kaykaychow

thx for those links. i had a quick look at some. perhaps next time i will share more what i think.

but what is language for? when a tool is being designed, is the criteria of being user-friendly more important or being a mental challenge more of a priority?

with cantonese being so difficult to learn, is it sth worth bragging about or rather a big drawback of the language?

as far as i know, given the same exposure of chinese and english, children can actually pick up english faster becoz english is easier. my choice over english in typing is also bcoz input is much faster. the advantage of chinese over english is its stability so its good for storing info but definately not as competitive as english for info exchange.

cantonese nowadays is the result of southward shift of languages spoken in the central china merging with the native dialects spoken in the south (as according to one of ur links) and mandarin is the result of southward shift of northern dialects merging with central china dialects. do u see a pattern of southward influence from the north? why not the otherway round if the language in the south is so much more elegant as commented by this professor Chan? do u know what Su1 Dong1-po1 said about the native dialects spoken in the south at his time(~1000yr ago): cry like monkeys.

simply bcoz cantonese sounds closer to the langauge spoken in central china during the glorious tang dynasty would make cantonese a better option for communication nowadays?   
roman empire was great too but do u also know Latin was already a dead lanague 500yrs ago?  english is also a very newly evolved language if to compare with italian, french and german, but its the most spoken language nowadays all around the world. chinese comes 2nd but mainly just within china.

as i said before, language comes and goes. cantonese is one of the least evolved chinese dialects and the curtain is closing for its service, whether u like it or not.

wicked

hi Uncle

thx for sharing ur daughter's writing. u must be so proud of her. critical thinking was probably not even in my vocabulary when i was her age.

i agree that drill exercises help boost asians performances in examinations and the sorts and asians are at best only equally smart as the white. the white has shown their dominance in almost all the continents they set foot upon (except east asia), to say they are dumber than us is reflection of poor judgement of our own.

but i do think racial difference plays a part in achievement. take the example of our two close neighbours -- japan and philiphine, both are island countries, have incorporated western democractic system, one exports sophisticated high-end electronics around the world and its culture wellrespected; one exports domestic helpers who might have an education background in international politics. anyone like to enlighten me why such a contrast?

yes we are all decendants of Lucy (as by the academic saying), but what have happened during the journey from Lucy to us in the course of 200,000yrs or even longer? whats the meaning of time if to say everyone is the same after all that long journey?

i dont need that much a scientific mind to exclude hainan and vietnam from the list. u wouldnt have made such a specific differenciation that u r not a cantonese while ur wife is, knowing  that i group cantonese together with hainanese and vietnamese in the low end, unless u meant to trap me. but then i thought only wicked ppl like me would bother doing stuff like that.

i appreciate ur good intention but i did mean every word i said. i treat ppl with due respect. i have no intention to nurture enemy among strangers but if there is a pathetic attention seeker with a self-inflated big head and inferior-complexed mind asking for my attention, i m always happy to comply. u dont come across ppl like that often and i would usually pass them as an entertaining big mouth as long as they leave me alone.

perhaps till next time. hope u had a geat holiday and best wishes for the new year.

wicked

friendly guy

no intention to offend u but just curious, are u always so scientific in ur everyday judgements? we actually make more judgements by intuition than reasoning and logic.

u name suggests a sense of easygoing-ness but i seem to sense more of tenseness in ur argument.

racial eradication happens by gene dilution. the less competitive lot are less likely to find a partner to pass on their genes.

genocide still happens often in africa though. u should know why by now i hope.

adopting a different language does not alter ur gene but can increase ur competitiveness in finding a partner of better gene and thus upgrade the gene of ur next generation. otherwise, why bothering learning english for?

yes most mutations are not good. revolultion is just like a mutation to a society. but some mutations can change the course of evolution to new light, this is how new species come about. the most recent academic research suggests one single mutation to a gene controlling the jaw muscle in a great ape (or man's ancient ancestor) resulting in man's different evolution path from our cousins, the great apes whose DNA is only of 1% difference from ours. apes still live in the jungle and we live in civilized cities and even reach out of the planet earth. our current average new borns amount about the same as the total population of great apes. if 1% difference can actually translate into that much difference, why cant a 0.000001%, for example, difference between the black and the white attribute to the contrast between the black neigbourhood and white neighbourhood? is it such a difficult logic?

happy new year to u too.

wicked

its more than often i have heard ppl pointing out that most of the NBA players are black whereas most of the coaches are white. different reasons have been suggested. the one i tend to agree more is bcoz the blacks are more monkey like( that must guarantee another racist point in my account). it has been more of an intuitive guess till recently after i watched a documentary showing the amazing short-term memory of a chimpanzee (which is considered our closest cousin of all the great apes). a chimpanzee only needs less than 0.1 sec (sth like 0.065s if i dont recall it wrong) to remember the positions of all the numbers flashed randomly on the sceen and point out the position from 0 to 9 in sequence. man by comparison can only remember up to 5 at best(kids tend to do better than adults). the explanation is that such short-term, almost instinct-like ability is vital for a chimpanzee’s survival in its natural enviroment where it needs to spot its enemies or food quickly, whereas for man, such ability has been traded off during the long journey of evolution for long-term and sophisticated planning. very likely black ppl have retained a bit more of such short-term ability than the other races, allowing them an edge in sports like basketball which demands speed and quick reflexes more than strategies. even as slight as 0.001sec’s difference in spring-into-action can already make a difference in who gets the re-bound or who gets short-cut. blacks are well-known for their quick spring-into-action, giving them advantage in short-course races. by a similar logic, i guess those who jump into conclusion quick is also becoz they are more monkey like but thats not necessarily a disadvantage depending on the situation.

[ 本帖最後由 wicked 於 11-2-11 18:24 編輯 ]