local school should adopt putonghua as teaching medium

wicked

1. cantonese is one of the least evolved dialects of the chinese language. less evolved means less aesthetically appreciated, which is why many mandarin speakers resent the cantonese background accent. cantonese actually sounds closer to vietnamese and thai than mandarin in terms of pronouciation. the same is the cantonese ppl's physical features which tend to be of a bigger jaw, darker skin tone and a stout physique.  cantonese ppl's mental ability is also near the low end of the spectrum across china despite the cantonese area claims to be the 2nd most educated after the changjiang delta area(near shanghai), the IQ score of which ranks top, meaning even education cannot help if the gene pool quality lags too far behind. the slow evolution of cantonese is due to the warm weather and mild seasonal changes. this is also why most of the poor countries are near the equator whereas the most affluent are more on the north(in the scope of northern hemisphere).
2.there is a gap between written form of chinese and the spoken cantonese, rendering the learning process of the language less efficient if the teaching medium is in cantonese while the text books are in formal chinese.

in the coarse of evolution, the less efficient will be replaced by the more efficient; the less aesthetically appreciated will be assimilated and replaced by the more appreciated.

wicked

all international schools are teaching chinese in mandarin, why local school choose otherwise?

the pronouciation of cantonese is close to the dialects spoken in central china 2000 years ago -- meaning the aesthetic level of Cantonese now is about the same as that prevalent in central china 2000 yrs ago, in other words, Cantonese has evolved very slow and thus sounds less pleasant to those with more developed aesthetic sense. this is why many mandarin speakers resent the cantonese accent.

mandarin is probably the most evolved chinese dialect, as having been subjected to influences(or blend-in) and scrutiny (or competition) from various dialects (mainly from the north and central) across china over history. the mandarin spoken by the beijing residents is probably the most pleasant to ears, thanks to the long history of beijing being the state capital(more than 1000 years). a capital city is where the elites congregate thus rendering more social selective pressure on the refinements of various aspects of human behaviour.

ANChan59

Interesting info.....

So what?

wicked

well, all up to how its taken.
for example some might get offended instead of just finding it interesting.

for me its enlightening. the implications and elaborations from "the least evolved" are folds, such as why cantonese culture is still not well regarded by other parts of china despite the economic affluence in the cantonese area and why cantonese ppl are the least popular group in places like universities and armies in the mainland.

friendlyguy

Oh! My God! Intra-racism among Chinese!

原帖由 wicked 於 11-1-22 15:05 發表
well, all up to how its taken.
for example some might get offended instead of just finding it interesting.

for me its enlightening. the implications and elaborations from "the least evolved" are fol ...

[ 本帖最後由 friendlyguy 於 11-1-22 18:20 編輯 ]

wicked

which is why "wicked". i conspire to split up china. how is that liked?

as expected, there will be ppl jumping into racism right away. i merely pointed out the inconvenient facts. like it or not, cantonese culture in general is not well regarded throughout chinese history. racism is an easily abused word. i dont like snake but i have yet to hear speciesism.  

why are the business setups around the pearl river delta more on the low end like toys and garments manufactoring whereas those around the changjiang river delta are more skills and techo oriented? coz the manpower there can cope with the demand. why are most of the major infrastructures and projects conducted in the cantonese area in the last few decades masterminded by non-cantonese chinese? why are there hardly any notable intellectuals or administrators of cantonese origin in chinese history?

the economic affluence in the cantonese area in the last half century is merely out of good luck and head start rather than cantonese culture having an edge. hk's take off happened in 1960s after the influx of immigrants and capitals from other parts of china(esp those around the shanghai area) between late 40s and 50s due to power change in the mainland. after the take off, more talents from around the world have been drawn in to help built hk an international city. without shanghai's fall, hk would have stood a much smaller chance to become what it is today.

enough history. back to the topic.

i simply dont see any advantage in clinging to a less evolved language when there is clearly a better option.

hk is the only chinese community in the world which is still teaching in cantonese.  let alone the backwardness of the language, the inconsistance between the spoken form and the written form simply taxes on the learning process. how can that be an efficient way of learning? another obvious fact.

singapore didnt start off as a mandarin community but its leaders were wise enough to adopt mandarin half century ago as one of its official languages. they also adopted the simplified form of written chinese. students there in general have better writing skills than hk students in both chinese and english. judging by the physical features, most of the chinese ppl there are of similar southern chinese look as the cantonese, so it should be nothing to do with any genetic advantage.

at the time of hk's rise, competition facing hk wastn that keen. the disavantage of cantonese was probably less obvious. with china's open up, a very different picture.

if ppl feels more comfortable to indulge in a hate agenda behind this topic, fine with me.

ANChan59

If our medium of instruction changed from Cantonese and or English to PTH, HK is another tiny city in China, no matter in south or north. What's our competitive advantages? (I emphasise on Cantonese and or English.)

The economical development of HK and PRD for the last half century is historical. We also bear in mind HK SME didn't have sufficient support from colonial and SAR government, so just focus on light industries and shirt term success is natural. As the resources and human captial of SME are so tight and the vision may not long term enough.

Shanghai and Beijing have a shorter learning curves, as using HK and PRD as testing points (摸著石頭過河). The Central Government can have more time to plan and patch up the weaknesses of those economic areas and developments. Also high tech and heavy industries based on human captial and significant support from government in terms of finanical and political resources. That's HK and PRD are lack of.

I remembered that when I was in high school, we also debated on the difference of southern and northern Chinese. I forgot most of the details, but I still remember the conclusion was they have different strengths and weaknesses and historical development. Not necessary have right or wrong answers.

Just curosity, if we change from Cantonese and or English medium of instruction to PTH, then we will not be marginised and prosperous based on the weak leadership of HKSAR government??? And better education???

friendlyguy

cantonese is one of the least evolved dialects of the chinese language. less evolved means less aesthetically appreciated

Evolve basically is a biological terms. The idea of least or most evolved is meaningless. All species in the world have all evolved for the same length of time. It just that some species remain largely unchange. Evolution is about what fits the situation best for survival. So, if a species remain unchange over time, it means that it already very well adapted to the environment. I have not study lingistic. However, I think this can also apply to language development. I would say Cantonese is more 'ancient' than Mandarin. I also heard some scholars said 詩詞歌賦 is better appreciate in Cantonese.

many mandarin speakers resent the cantonese background accent

Many Cantones speakers resent the Mandarin background accent too.

cantonese actually sounds closer to vietnamese and thai than mandarin in terms of pronouciation

Sorry, I speak Cantonese but I can't understand a word of Vietnamese and Thai. However, I can understand Mandarin.

cantonese ppl's mental ability is also near the low end of the spectrum across china

Can you quote a scientifc study about this?


in the coarse of evolution, the less efficient will be replaced by the more efficient; the less aesthetically appreciated will be assimilated and replaced by the more appreciated.

Have you heard of 劣幣驅逐良幣（Bad money drives out good)http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/ ... 0%E8%89%AF%E5%B9%A3

the mandarin spoken by the beijing residents is probably the most pleasant to ears

各花入各眼，各語入各耳

why cantonese ppl are the least popular group in places like universities and armies in the mainland.

Again, can you quote some scientific study.

racism is an easily abused word. i dont like snake but i have yet to hear speciesism.  

Yes, 佛家有云：眾生平等。

why are there hardly any notable intellectuals or administrators of cantonese origin in chinese history?

How about 孫中山，葉劍英.........




While I agree Mandarin should be given a more important place in Hong Kong education for the sake of that this being the national language, your comments of phyical appearance and IQ of Cantonese make me sick!




[ 本帖最後由 friendlyguy 於 11-1-24 12:26 編輯 ]

wicked

making a friendly guy sick -- that must be potently wicked enough, unless the friendly guy simply too vulnerable if not of a twisted psyche? i fancied “wicked” after encountering a “Mighty” who turned out more like miserable.

no need to take my comment so personally. the world is made up of differences which we make judgement upon. there are always differences between different social groups. by addressing differences we come to know our origin and our path, which might help us become more openminded for a bigger picture. i didnt say all cantonese ppl are ugly nor northern chinese all good looking. its like a general comparison between spectrums, if we take the average, an northern chinese is easily more attractive than an average cantonese. maybe politically incorrect to say but unfortunately true.

judging by ur understanding of evolution, we are hardly on a close level for a meaningful discussion. no intention to belittle ur ability but maybe more to do the gap between our exposures. but then i dont owe anyone an education. there is more than u want to know about evolution on the internet.

There are two parts making who we are: gene(innate) and exposure (natural enviroment:food and weather, social enviroment: people). gene determines one’s potential and exposure affects to what extent we can reach our potential. gene respresents the survival wisdom crystalized from the accumulated exposures our ancestors had over the course of evolution(which is of billions of years).This is also why Confusius said “bu2 xiao4 you3 san3, wu2 hou4 wei2 da4”. if u cant pass on ur gene, u would waste all the efforts ur ancestors had made. being so important, how do we read gene? in a hip term, ur face and other physical features are like the facebook of ur gene and u read it by intuition. ur sense of aesthetics is an important part of intuition, which is why we can almost decisively tell one is more attractive than another even in a first encounter despite it might be much less easy to rationalize why so by logic. this is also why new born babies prefer to look at pictures of good looking ppl.

i always wondered why black ppl looks less appealing than white ppl ever since i first got to see their pictures when i was a kid. both black and white ppl are foreign to me so it shouldnt be cultural bias. as i got older, i also began to notice that southern chinese look less attractive than northern chinese. this “why” had always been in the back of my head.

its not easy to conduct scientific research on relations between IQ and look. but nonetheless there have been some data out. the most recent one is done by london school of economics based on a 6yr study over quite a big sample. the study suggested a positive co-relation between IQ and physical attractiveness. news about it is available on internet. it was actually on the hk local newspaper last week.

this is a website showing IQ by country worldwide.
http://www.worldmaps.co.uk/free-world-maps

i m amused by some of the figures (eg australia) but nonetheless there is a geographical pattern esp with respect to north-southwards. u can make ur own judegment. with that pattern in mind, guangdong and hainan’s low IQ ranking (both below 100 if i dont recall it wrong) in china makes perfect sense to me. i came across the ranking data on a mainland forum last year but havent been able to find it again. but then for those with a victimised mentality, if its easier for u to take my words as anti-cantonese fabrication, suit urself.

education in finland is said to be superb but if u put some black africans there for upbringing and schooling, more likely than not, their outcome will still be on the low end of the spectrum no matter how hard they try. i guess thats the same reason for guangdong being the 2nd most educated province yet still with a low IQ ranking.  

another fact is, genetically cantonese are more related to vienamese than those along and above the changjiang river, which is why cantonese look more like vienamese than northern chinese.

as with my own experience, if i run into a tall, fair toned and refined looking chinese in hk, more likely than not, he or she is NOT of cantonese origin.

equality is an ideal but there is always a gap between reality and ideal.  reality does bite.

btw, i dont consider Dr Sun Yat Sen a great leader. he was made the 1st president out of political convenience. he is an empty talker, not well regarded by many who had once worked closely with him. more less politically biased facts have been out. i dont find him honourable at all. china might have done better this last 100yrs without him messing up china’s fate. simply becoz ppl like him  had such an impact on china, he should be discussed objectively or even critically rather than to be glorified.

i would rather u have quoted Liang Qi-chao. he is talented, well read and far more respectable both as an intellectual and as a person. he was one of the few who were against Sun Yat Sun’s revolutionary move. he believed that true change to a nation can only be brought by the enlightenment of mind rather than by blood and force.

wicked

i m no expert on linguistics either. its not easy to explain in terms of aesthetics. to avoid bias, try listening to foreign langauges spoken in the tropical and those in the north, see if u could notice a pattern in terms of pleasantness to ears.

wicked

i tend to believe ideas and forms and behaviours which are more in line with our aesthetic sense are more efficient.

wicked

becoz the rest of the chinese communities have adopted mandarin, HK should do otherwise to stand out. by the same token, hk should opt for a different foreign language instead of english coz  simply too many out there are learning english.  

language is not primarily for communication’s sake but more for posing as a signiture.

annie40

this is a website showing IQ by country worldwide.
http://www.worldmaps.co.uk/free-world-maps

这个research website有点无聊 ,种族歧视, 不必太认真.

wicked

another quick jump to conclusion. racism is easily associated whenever the discussion concerns racial diferences.

anthropology was neglected or even suppressed for some years after 2nd world war coz the bad experiences of holocaust and eugenics. but with the world getting more mobile, we are open to more oppotunities to encounter differences and this actually has helped ppl become more self-aware and acceptive of facts. ppl's attitude towards racial differences is also less radical than before. anthropology is now a popular subject, esp together with the devolopment of molecular biology and psychology.

wicked

in the 2000yrs of china as a unified country, the centre of governance was never made below the changjiang river, and there has been little(if not none) history about southerners from below changjiang river ruling over the north. but central china was ruled by northen tribes from mongol and manchu for a significant period of time in the last 1000yrs. i guess that says a lot.

wicked

guangzhou was made an open port for trade with west and hong kong given to the british about 150yrs ago after china losing the opium war. this connection to the west resulted in the first big wave of chinese emmigration to the west from guangdong and consequently brought new ideas and progressive influences to the cantonese area. a significant percentage of revolutionists at turn of last century were of cantonese background. however, despite cantonese played a big part in the beginning of the revolutions to overthrow the manchu empire, their roles in the later governance of the country were almost ignorable. governance requires more sophisticated and long term planning than revolutions.

wong616

本地學校應該用英文作為教學語言。甚至可以嘗試用英文教中文及普通話。

wicked

its intriguing to notice that ppl in hk embrace english with so much enthusiasm, yet another equally (if not more) pleasant and popular language closer to their own mother tongue has been treated with much despise and even hostility. perhaps its to do with the less favoured political system and the backwardness in the mainland. understandable in a way but language comes and goes in history. by clinging to an obviously less efficient and less popular language will only do more harm to hk than good.