local school should adopt putonghua as teaching medium

wicked

guangzhou has a township history over 2000yrs. despite being the 3rd largest city in china and blessed with the more progressive western influence much earlier than other big cities, the tertiary education in guangzhou still remains 3rd rated at best. bright students and top schoolars are less than willing to come for study and work there despite the money prospect might be more attractive. i guess that says a lot about the regard for cantoense culture.

its indisputable that cantonese culture and the dialect is of littel significance in hk's rise. put the other factors(e.g. legal and administrative system and english literacy from the colonial history) to other chinese coastal cities, more likely than not, they could have done even better. hk’s take-off happened in 1960s thanks to the influx of the non-cantonese immigrants in the 50s. and cantonese was only made official in 1970s -- and i wonder why it wasnt mandarin. the british gentlmen are wellknown for their cultural insignt (and crookedness) and they  must know the cons and pros of mandarin and cantonese well. only a fool would believe its to do with their respect for cantonese culture.

in its 150yrs short history, hk has benefited a lot from both china’s misfortune and take-off. there seems to be a sense of exclusiveness to hk’s success bcoz of that. perhaps that explains the mentality of some hk ppl into thinking that clinging to cantonese is a way to further highlight hk’s uniqueness from the rest of china. if such mentality also plays a part in hk’s policy making, hk’s doom day is counting close even faster.

[ 本帖最後由 wicked 於 11-1-26 18:16 編輯 ]

eviepa

小學時老師聽說過，戰後的一段時間裡，香港廣泛地採用普通話教學，但問題是，因為語言障礙，學生回家後得不到家長的支援，所以紛紛改用廣東話教學。

幾十年前，一個初中生已被稱為知識分子，讓新一代識字已是最高理想。在當時環境，採用普通話教學，利少弊多，採用廣東話教學可解燃眉之急。但幾十年前被政府認為識字就是一切的孩子 — 就是你和我 — 現在已經長大成人，大概是時候檢討普教中的問題了。

eviepa

Wicked - 很欣賞你的分析。

wicked

appreciating ur feedback and support too. good to know not everyone takes me negatively despite of my negative sentiment against cantonese. actually i dont mind being taken as a racist. i think racism is as natural as judging ppl based on look and i believe in “look is more than skin deep”. as by someone’s words:”racism is inherent, undeconstructable but can be controlled”. racism taxes on life so shouldnt be encouraged. exposure and open discussion help reduce racism. that said, i dont mind pricking those sanctimonious narrow mindsets who cant wait to finger point as if they were at a moral higher ground.

i learned about hk’s history mostly thru media. i see ur point and good sense there. a relative of mine was a teacher before. she said some posh private primary schools did teach chinese in mandarin at her time(80s).

i wonder if the “red riot” in late 60s might have played a part in the goverment’s later decision to make cantonese official instead of mandarin, as a way or statement to curb hk’s connection with the red china.

hk has adopted the 3-3-4 system as in china but there seems hardly any talking about changing the teaching medium to mandarin. i tend to think its more to do with attitude and will than execution difficulty.

uncleedward

Dear wicked

I had read your blog at BK before I started to write this and I have to say I like most of the things you wrote there. I liked particularly the joke about the wife’s name as “Always Right”

同是喜歡錢鍾書，而及烏亦喜愛楊絳的文字。見到你引錢的文字：「偏見可以說是思想的放假。它不是沒有思想的人的家常日用，而是有思想的人的星期日娛樂。」What you wrote here have mostly been said in your blog. It seems that you are still clinging to these ideas. Apparently you have allowed your serious thinking too long a holiday.

I’m not interested in discussing your opinions as I do think everyone is allowed his/her own biases no matter how weird or how wicked they may seem. However, I am slightly surprised a seemingly well educated person like you would allow his/her opinions to be based on clearly incorrect facts, and unfortunately for so long. I sincerely suggest you pick up some newly published physical or cultural anthropology (人類學) books. (The translation is for the benefit of some other readers who would prefer me to write in Chinese. But clearly to write all of the following in Chinese is beyond the time constraint imposed on me in view of my Chinese input speed. )

Thanks to modern genetic tools available to us, anthropologists can now tell us for certain that modern humans, i.e. all of us living on this planet, be it Europeans, Chinese, Australians, originated in East Africa about 200,000 years ago. There were some Chinese anthropologists in favor of regional evolution theory 多地區連續進化說 holding a different view but it has more or less died down after modern genetic science has provided conclusive proofs otherwise. All Chinese people including you and me are descendants of a black lady living in East Africa 200,000 years ago. The modern Chinese’s (about 50,000 years ago) ancestors were also Caucasians 高加索人 whose ancestors were descendants coming out from East Africa. It is therefore pointless to say who, whether northern Chinese or southern Chinese, are “more evolved”. It is like talking which of the two brothers, separated at birth, one brought up in Kowloon and one brought up on Hong Kong island, is more evolved 20 years later, even we pretend to know what you mean by “more evolved”.

Our ancestors came out of Africa where there is more sunlight. Therefore we were black then. As we left Africa, moving over to Europe and Asia where there is less sunlight, our skin colour became lighter. It was just a matter of gradual evolution through natural selection (pigmented skin against damaging UV rays and vitamin D hypothesis).

There are two rules in anthropology on the relationship between body size, body proportions, and climate: Bergmann’s rule and Allen’s rule.

Bergman’s rule: Mammals’ body size tends to be greater in populations that live in cooler climates because a smaller surface area to mass ratio allows for better heat retention.

Northern Chinese are therefore bigger than their southern brothers in general. It is only a matter of different evolutionary adaptation. It does not mean they are more evolved at all.

Allen’s rule: Longer appendages (手長脚長), with increased surface area relative to mass, are more adaptive in warmer climate for better heat loss. That explains why although Vietnamese girls are short physically, very often we still use骨內勻稱，身材窈窕to describe their body shape.

As to Chinese speaking Putonghua, it is nothing to do with evolution. If you bother to google it, you will find that Putonghua was actually brought in by Mongolians in Yuan Dynasty only about 800 years ago. 有一說普通話的引入伴随着漢人大量遭殺剹的血淚歷史，中古漢語的入聲字亦在北方從此消失。How can it be said that Putonghua is a more evolved language then? As to whether Cantonese or Putonghua sounds better to ears, I used to think your way when I was young, particularly after a two-month trip around China with my wife in our younger days. Our last stop was Guangzhou and I even refused to speak Cantonese there. I have a certain flair for language. Although I was born in Hong Kong, I can pass as a northerner if only 閑話家常 is involved. But my dislike for Cantonese then was completely due to the unique phenomena that a lot of people in Guangzhou then had this particular habit of including a certain mention of sexual organs in every single sentence. It was a completely cultural thing. A lot of people prefer Taiwanese 國語 to Putonghua as it sounds a lot softer. Both上海人 and 蘇州人喜歡吵架. It will be unusual to spend a day in the streets of Shanghai without hearing some people quarreling. I can assure you it sounds irritating to ears, but even Shanghai people would admit it is somehow an enjoyable thing to see two Suzhou girls quarrel (I did witness a couple of times myself. Although I wouldn’t say it is music to ears, it definitely sounds a lot more bearable than Shanghainese) . French also sounds better than English and definitely better than German. Try to say it to the local man sitting next to you in a pub in London or Heidelberg: the French are “more evolved” (no matter what you mean by that for that matter) than the English and the German. I don’t think you need me to remind you that German people normally are much bigger than us in size and they are not particularly known for their sense of humor. You will probably find the German would suddenly become not so civilized, or become “less evolved” in your terms, even in an idyllic place like Heidelberg. If you try to determine which language is more evolved based on certain aesthetic criteria, you will see a lot of contradicting examples flying in your face.

One thing I want to remind you is that most Chinese leaders establishing the new China are southern Chinese(to the south of the Yangtze), although Cantonese people may think otherwise.

It is always tempting in daily discussion to have the conclusion first and gather whatever examples one thinks fit to support the conclusion. But scientific methodology should be called for if we really want a serious discussion of a sensitive topic like this.

S Washburn, a well-known physical anthropologist at Berkeley, said in 1963: “Races are the products of the past. They are relics of times and conditions which have long ceased to exist. Racism is equally a relic supported by no phase of modern science. We may not know how to interpret the form of the Mongoloid face, or why Rh is of high incidence in Africa, but we do know the benefits of education and of economic progress. We know that the roots of happiness lie in the biology of the whole species and that the potential of the species can only be realized in a culture, in a social system. It is knowledge and the social system which give life or take it away, and in so doing change the gene frequencies and continue the million-year-old interaction of culture and biology.” Although this statement was written more than half a century ago, it is still fresh and valid today.

When it comes to the even more sensitive topic of intelligence, I have to say it remains a controversy inside and outside the scientific world whether population affinity and intelligence are associated. Both genetic and environmental factors contribute to intelligence. What can be said though, is that IQ scores and intelligence aren’t the same thing. IQ scores can also change over one’s lifetime and IQ scores of different populations overlap. The differences in average IQ scores that exist between different groups are close to impossible to interpret and it is impossible to determine what proportion of the variation in test scores is due to biological factors. There is no convincing evidence whatsoever that populations vary with regard to cognitive abilities, regardless of what some popular books (instead of academic ones) may suggest. Unfortunately, racist attitudes towards intelligence continue to exist, despite the complete lack of evidence of mental inferiority of some populations and mental superiority of others. We also know individual abilities result from complex interactions with environmental factors. One important factor is learning or education.

昨天下午外出正值放學時間，乘的巴士很擠。中途有人下車，在旁站立已久的一個背着大書包，一手提着環保袋的 SSGC 女孩轉身正準備坐下時，瞥見身後站立的一位身體頗健壯的婆婆，就馬上說：「婆婆，你坐呀！」其他乘客這麽久都沒有讓位，而這個女孩子讓了位，我想不會是因為其他人是廣東人而這女孩子不是(我看她顴骨高高的，應該也是廣東人) ，it is education. And I think education matters much much more than any other genetic factors you may find in most things in our daily life.

我大概不會再回帖，除非你發覺我說的人類學知識有錯誤。至於個人見解，不辯也罷。不諱言我也是一個滿腦子偏見的人, in a liberal society, we are all allowed our own biases。

Finally, just in case you wonder, I am not a Cantonese myself although my wife is. I didn’t read anthropology at university either.

[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 11-1-28 20:28 編輯 ]

annie40

Uncle,

我不但无比你的人类学大作闷瓜, 仲边看边大笑, 已copy一份在个人档案中, 无事做 (经常是此状态) 重看笑餐饱.

我想你还要繼續努力, 直到闷瓜我地为止. (中英也欢迎)

怪不得你爱妻是醋良子. 让她上BK, 欣赏你的大作, 对健康有益.

annie

仲未揾到你的pm 关于跑鞋size, 是我藉口吗?

wicked

hi Uncle Edward

wow. i m truly flattered -- no sarcasm here. i was expecting this thread to have ended before ur post.

good to know u r not cantonese, in one way i could assume less biased opinions there and less worry for offending u, and in another as a validation for my long held belief: non-cantonese chinese's mindsets are more refined and sophisticated . hope u dont mind. i do know generalization does not necessarily apply to individual case.

thank you very much for ur very well informed feedback. truly appreciating it. but i think i will need a bit more time to digest all of it esp the rather academic bit and hopefully can come back with some meaningful arguments.  i look forward to being enlightened more so hope this wont be ur last post.

i dont have a background in anthropology either, just having the impression its a subject tracking man's history and a lot of findings are based on comparing racial differences and differeces between man and the great apes.

as mentioned in my previous post, there are two parts making who we are: gene and exposure. i think gene is more of a product of nature's selection process whereas exposure more of man's effort.  i dont think man can ever win over nature. that is why i value the quality of gene pool more than anything else.

i think as long as man has to make judgement based on differences and different social groups  segregated by bordres, there will always be racism.  we are all shaped by our expereicens and social expericiences shape our empathy, the ability to think from others perspective. empathy is the basis to moral standard and values , so ultimately the social system. different social groups have different empathy levels(thus different social systems), which gives rise to different stereotypings. stereotyping is where racism stems from. is stereoptyping biased? surely yes; is it totally wrong? no.

take the example of stereoptyping between hk ppl and mainlanders. becoz of hk’s prosperity, ppl in hk has long enjoyed a sense of betterment over the less fortunate mainlanders, as apparent from the negatively stereotyped mainlanders often portrayed in hk media( which might have played a part in hk ppl’s attitude towards mandarin). but mainlanders also have their treat back. here is a brief summary of what i have come across on internet: loud, rude and uncultured (even if well-educated), obsessed with food and money, less attractive physically, less interesting, less capable of sophisticated taste and intellectual depth; their less developed sense of honour makes them less trustworthy and easily resort to short-cut behaviours such as cheat, abuse and vulgarity for short term gain. their sense of humour is simplistic, often vulgar and witless. some of the attributes are actually from foreigners who have had experiences with both cantonese ppl and northern chinese. offensive may it be, its not all wrong based on my own experiences here. one particular cantonese respondent in this thread seems to fit some of the descriptions quite well. i should thank her for being so helpful to validate my points so well too. huan1 ying2 dui4 huao4 ru4 zuo4.  

more evolved means more refined, ie having survived thru a more stringent selection process, resulting in more changes in the genes as comparing to the origin. complacence in the tropical becoz of warm weather slows down the evolution process.

more pleasant pronouciation is the result of a more energy efficient sound producing path. do u watch 6 billions others? comparing the facial muscle involvement between a black and a white's talking.

i will stop here for now. will go bak to my blog for a review first. dont quite remember what i put down there. havent been here for a long time.

i might have clinged to some ideas but evolution is an on going thing for me just like every netizen.  

till next time

eviepa

我都話欣賞wicked的言論啦，睇下，吸引到Uncle又出來講一大段勒。在BK，很少看見有這些學術味道那麼重的討論，我真的目不暇給。第一回合，wicked先出招，Uncle還一重拳，wicked要review一下自己的blog，肯定再出招。擔定凳仔睇戲。

對種族歧視，我有以下看法：

各個種族都有自己的「特性」，而此等特性會影響到做各種task的能力。這不涉及種族歧視。

在美國，黑人的肌肉密度高，所以在需要大力量的運動比白人有較強的競爭能力，比如說，歷屆NBA中的MPV，幾乎都是「黑猛猛」的。但亦因為肌肉密度高，在水中較難浮起，所以美國泳隊是「白雪雪」的。

各民族有各自的生理特徵，如果各民族的IQ都大致相近，我反而覺得奇怪。

去年曾經看過一個「洋鬼子」對各大民族做IQ的比較。詳細記不清楚，但歐洲最蠢的民族是經濟最發達的德國人，全世界最聰明的是東北亞人（中國東北、韓國、日本）。這個研究引來很多批評，認為是種族歧視。

好可能就是wicked所講的，由於希特拉用偽科學，去將自己的侵略、屠殺合理化，之後，此題目就是大家的禁忌，碰不得。但，如果研究的方法合理，得出來的結論真是民族間有差異，是否就因為政治不正確而不應發表呢？是否要做到沒有差異才可以發表？

除了生理結構問題外，文化亦會導致競爭力的強弱：

回教徒不怎樣重視人世的生活，最重視上天堂。在戰場上，他們視死如生。在十字軍的年代，軍隊用刀去對砍，白人就很難敵得過他們，所以儘管不斷組織十字軍，基督徒都是節節敗退，回教可能是當時最有競爭力的文化。直到文藝復興時代，歐洲科技大踴進，回教徒怎樣強捍也敵不過洋槍大炮。此時，競爭力的天平又去了白人那裡。

在二十世紀初，東亞跟中東都是白人掠奪的對像。到二十世紀後半部，東亞人漸漸站起來。但反觀中東回教徒最重視的，是死後的生活，oil dollar大部分不是用作建設經濟。東亞人又有較高的競爭力。

或許會有一日，社會的演變令回教徒重拾競爭力。

在BK這種公眾平台，主張之中有大量論據支持，是可貴的。我不一定同意wicked的論點，但我欣賞他的方法。

wicked加油！

Uncle加油！

eviepa

uncleedward

原帖由 wicked 於 11-1-28 18:30 發表
hi Uncle Edward

wow. i m truly flattered -- no sarcasm here. i was expecting this thread to have ended before ur post.

good to know u r not cantonese, in one way i could assume less biased opinions ...

Dear wicked


As I said I really cannot have an extended discussion with you right now; however, I forgot to mention a couple of things:

1. I said I'm not a Cantonese. But I could have come from further south, like Hainan Island or Vietnam, either of which is at an even lower level in your hierarchy. Your mindset is really not scientific enough.

2. As you could be new here, you probably don't know offending me is a trivial matter not worth mentioning, but offending the people around me and in particular my wife, is a serious crime almost calling for the death penalty, 因為你唔死就到我死。作為一個典型小男人，為朋友兩脅插刀多數唔駛預我，但為女人(呢個咋吓)插朋友兩脅幾刀就分分鐘做得出。

3. Treat the people here nicely; don't antagonize us with words you may not really mean. Learn from eviepa. He's been preaching patiently his gospel here for years. Although we may not all have turned into his disciples, we have, however, all become his friends. (eviepa, 咪得戚，我重未嬲完你。叫你頂兩嘴你就掉轉頭讚兩嘴。)

As I said elsewhere, I am about to go on an extended holiday with my wife and thus have to be away for some time. Like you said,

until next time.

[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 11-1-29 15:43 編輯 ]

uncleedward

While I have nothing to add myself, I happen to find what my elder daughter wrote in one of her homework assisngments two years ago when she was doing grade 12 in the US. It is interesting to see the change in the attitude of the next generation twoards the racial issue, particularly with Obama being elected as the first black President in the US as the background. Don't waste time criticising the essay. It is hardly scientific at all; I can easily point out the weaknesses myself. It was a draft she sent to me for discussion but I already forgot what I said to her afterwards:
===============================

2/2/2009

Are Asians Really Smarter?

Numerous statistics indicate that students from Asian countries constantly outscore their counterparts from western countries in various international academic and intelligence tests. Several international studies also showed that Asian students have higher abilities in mathematics and science. Why would there be such a difference? Are Asians really more intelligent? This can be an interesting yet controversial question. Being an Asian student, I would love to think that we are smarter than others. However, my answer to the question would be negative. I believe all races have more or less the same level of intelligence. So, if Asians are not genetically any smarter than other races, why are they academically more successful? For me, it’s the Asian culture and environment which make the difference.

To begin with, Asian families stress on the importance of education above everything else. They believe academic excellence is the only way to success. Parents often keep a close eye on their children’s learning progress at school. Only by making sure their children are working hard and getting straight As, Asian parents would then feel their responsibilities have been discharged. Homework and grades always come first before sports and music. Therefore, most students in Asian countries primarily focus on schoolwork and public examinations. While parents fear that they can’t help their kids achieve their best, children are also afraid that they might disappoint their parents. They usually work hard trying to meet their parents’ expectations. Consequentially, diligent Asian students tend to do better academically.

Moreover, Asian students are generally more disciplined. Schools have stricter rules and better orders. Teachers have more authority and students have greater respect for them. Students are taught to follow word for word what the teachers say. As a result, students learn in an orderly and efficient environment. There may also be vices in this kind of learning as students often just empty their brains and absorb what are taught. They can memorize information without understanding what it means. It is not common for students to ask questions. While Asian students may not be as creative as others, they are definitely more knowledgeable. When it comes to tests and examinations, it is always how much you know that counts.

Asian students are undoubtedly better test-takers. Students in Asian countries often undergo much keener competitions for education; striving to get into top universities, high schools, or even elementary schools. As a consequence, Asians are trained to take various tests and public exams from a very early age. In order to deal with all the rigorous homework and tests, it is not uncommon for them to take tutorial lessons after school. This is especially popular among East Asian countries like China, Taiwan, Japan and South Korea. A girl from South Korea once told me that they had tutorial classes until two o’clock in the morning. This is certainly unthinkable in other countries. Practice makes perfect; it not surprising to find Asian students performing better in the international academic tests after all.

As you can see from the above points, Asian students do not have to be smarter to attain better academic results. They just work harder. Academic success depends more on how one is raised by his/her parents and the learning environment than the innate intelligence of the students. Competition can also push one to work harder and achieve higher. The achievements of Asian students prove that diligence is the key to success. If students in other countries work equally hard, Asian students would not be predominating in tests and exams as they are seemingly doing.

Regardless of where they come from, students of different races will have equal chances to excel – if they really want to do it.

[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 11-1-30 00:52 編輯 ]

friendlyguy

Eviepa,

In contrast to you, I don’t see Wicked ‘s method is good.

See through all his posts, the reasons why Hong Kong should adopt PTH as teaching medium is because:

1.        PTH is a more evolved and esthetic pleasing language
2.        Cantonese culture is inferior to the Northern Chinese culture
3.        Cantonese people is less esthetical pleasing
4.        Cantonese people’s gene pool is inferior so that Cantonese’s IQ is among the lowest in China

1, 2.and 3 are just subjective opinions, that means they can’t be measured objectively. With regard to 4., Uncleedward has already discuss the downfall of IQ measurement. I do agree that there should be difference in intellectual level between different races. However, if you want to convince me that one race is more intelligent that the other, please show me a real science report with methodology, sampling method, what statistical test has been done, how and why you come to that conclusion. Even where the funding of that particular study came from will influence the result. Not just say that I heard last year a symposium in China said so, but I can’t find the material, or it has been reported in a newspaper. The only evidence he show us in his posts is a web site http://www.worldmaps.co.uk/free-world-maps which show average IQ by country. This map didn’t say how it come to these figures. It also not say what average parameter is using (mean, median or mode), what is the standard derivation, and is there a significant difference between countries. More importantly, this map make a serious mistake: it means to show different country ‘s IQ level, however, Hainan is not a country. This map also do not show separate IQ level of different provinces in China. But, Wicked use it to deduced that IQ level of Cantonese is less than 100 which is lower than people in Northern China. Since these deduction is groundless, his conclusion that Cantonese only suitable for low skill work and why there are hardly any notable intellectuals or administrators of cantonese origin in chinese history cannot stand. You may think I am very harsh, but since this is a very controversial subject, the standard should set a bit higher.

Even if Cantonese people’s IQ level is really lower, Cantonese cultural is inferior, and Cantonese language is less aesthetically pleasing, are these reasons to shift Hong Kong’ teaching medium to PTH? Let say, we do adopt PTH as teaching medium, will Cantonese culture improve? May be, If you think Cantonese culture is really inferior. Will Cantonese IQ level improve? May be, we all know IQ can be trained. Will Cantonese gene pool improve? Definitely no. I think we all know that to improve gene pool, mutation or inter-breed is needed. Mutation is a chance process and most of it changes to worse side instead of better and most of it is recessive. Vast majority of it will die down very soon. Education is definitely not a factor for mutation. Making our future generations subject to X-ray radiation may be more efficient! I also don’t see education has any relationship with inter-breeding of one lower IQ group with a higher IQ one!

Doing a scientific study is one thing. Policy making is the other. If we base on this and change the medium teaching medium to PTH, I can see that in a generation later, someone still say that Cantonese is only suitable for low skill work, no important notable intellectual and administrator. Taking an extreme, someone may suggest moving all Cantonese northward and make them subject to the same environment where their northern brothers live and let them become more “evolve”. Someone may even says evolution take millions years. It is too slow. In order to improve the gene pool of Chinese as a whole, we better eradicate them!

You may think I am 杞人憂天, but I see it is a real danger and it is a danger that we human being cannot risk.

I have to stress that I agree PTH should have a more important role in Hong Kong’s eduation for the sake of PTH being the National language of China and all other reasons except racial difference (if you think Cantonese is another race.).

Regards,

Friendlyguy

[ 本帖最後由 friendlyguy 於 11-1-30 08:43 編輯 ]

eviepa

Friendlyguy,

作為一個廣東人，我當然希望wicked的理論最後被人擊倒。

wicked所講的理論，是一家之見，所引用支持的證據，是無千無萬的證據之中的其中一些證據，大家都有權說他是一偏之見。不過我覺得wicked已經盡了一個網民的責任，有觀點，有大量證據支持。我想，絕大部分網友，都將BK作為一個茶餘飯後吹水的平台。大家都不是學者，不能將發文的要提升到極之嚴謹的的標準。

wicked所播的是種，是大家從這點開始的討論點，對此我是歡迎的，不管我對此等觀點同不同意。

wicked的觀點，肯定有大量網友不同意，希望大家盡施渾身解數，憑堅實的論據，理性地討論。

Friendlyguy, 加油！

eviepa

kaykaychow

原本不打算在這裡再出現，為了捍衛廣東話， 我想我要盡一下責任， 以下是陳雲的文章， 陳雲是中文大學的英文系碩士，德國 哥廷根大學的博士。做過藝術發展局的研究總監，在何志平局長任內當過民政事務局研究總監：

http://realforum.zkiz.com/thread.php?tid=6535

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1184

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1200

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1220

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1237

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1254

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1288

wicked

hi eviepa

sorry for late response. “need a bit more time” becomes a long halt.

还道您是位妈妈，原来也是爷们儿，还好起哄看打架。儒雅如我，您看怕得失望了。再次谢谢您的鼓励和仗义. 可抬举我受不起，不小心摔着，那能好受？更乐意听您的不同意见，所谓进步源于距离。您可能是位mr nice,我倒不太在意情面，但自以为也算明理，不会无故失礼于人, 对不识趣的只是礼尚往来而已。

most of my opinions are based on my own observations and bits and pieces from media. i was trained in the life science field which might have helped pave the way but i dont see the inevitable connection in between. 在学者眼里，我的看法大有可能被认为是歪论. actually i have had arguments with ppl who are more knowledgeable in the relevant fields yet i m still to be convinced that i m wrong.

civilization starts from social interaction and is a process of refinement and sophistication which is guided by aesthetics. the meaning behind aesthetics is energy efficiency. the more stringent the selection process, the more energy efficient the outcome, which is also more in line with our sense of aesthetics. aesthetics is empathy related. a more developed empathy level supports a more advanced social system, the culture of which is more appreciated aesthetically thus more affluent. take the example of democracy, its a product of the more progressive western culture. the whole world is trying to adopt democracy. the west had tried to impose the western democracy system in africa after the 2nd world war. result? complete failure. why? becoz the empathy level in the african society is not as well developed as in the west to support such a more evolved system. its like a tall guy’s shirt, it looks nice on the tall guy but if u r short, better wait till u grow into a similar height.

there has always been debates over racial differences esp in the respect of intelligence. there is probably not yet a concensus over the defination on intelligence. and science is yet to define wisdom. there are different IQ test tools and the results are not always consistent. ppl gifted with creativity and artistic talents could score well below average. i think 倪匡 mentioned in his newspaper column that his scored really low in these tests and one of his buddies scored sth like double of his but the gap hardly affects their friendship and interaction and no one can say he is dumb.

yes, IQ is affected by exposure and can change over time. so i wouldnt say IQ test is an accurate and reliable tool to measuare intelligence but maybe thats the best available at the moment. both neural science and psychology are new subjects of probably less than 100yrs old (judging by the fact that freud is called the father of psychology and he passed away less than 100yrs ago). for the  average lot, their IQ scores probably can be considered as a crude reflection of their intelligence that is more valued in a civilized society. many corporate companies include aptitude tests in their recruitment process. these aptitude tests come from IQ test tools so IQ test must be of some good value there.

if all ppl are really equal, we would not see this universal advocacy for equality. just like if u already have rice everyday, u wouldnt aspire to having rice everyday.  equality is an ideal of humanity, just like we aspire to ultimate wisdom and kindness. unfortunately reality is far from ideal, which is why we have religion as an integral part of all civilizations across the world, with equality and altruism highly regarded in all influential religious teachings.

america is a melting pot with a wide range of ethnicities. when we see the black neighbourhood contrasting so much to the white neighbourhood, is that really just the black ppl do not work as hard? so just their own fault to be blamed?  i thought thats an easier(if not hypocritical) excuse than trying to find out why they look different physically and what such physical differences translate into in the context of civilization.

i like ur example about basketball player. i was going to talk about it even before u mentioned it. i will come back on that when i have a bit more time(hopefully not another long halt).

CNY is a wrong time to get involved in forum discussion. i had disfunctional experiences with forum discussion before which affected my real life. becoz of that i have learned not to let strangers on internet take priority of my schedule. i wont be able to cover every anti-argument raised in this thread but surely i will write again.

btw wish u and family good health and happiness in the new year.

till next time

wicked

kaykaychow

thx for those links. i had a quick look at some. perhaps next time i will share more what i think.

but what is language for? when a tool is being designed, is the criteria of being user-friendly more important or being a mental challenge more of a priority?

with cantonese being so difficult to learn, is it sth worth bragging about or rather a big drawback of the language?

as far as i know, given the same exposure of chinese and english, children can actually pick up english faster becoz english is easier. my choice over english in typing is also bcoz input is much faster. the advantage of chinese over english is its stability so its good for storing info but definately not as competitive as english for info exchange.

cantonese nowadays is the result of southward shift of languages spoken in the central china merging with the native dialects spoken in the south (as according to one of ur links) and mandarin is the result of southward shift of northern dialects merging with central china dialects. do u see a pattern of southward influence from the north? why not the otherway round if the language in the south is so much more elegant as commented by this professor Chan? do u know what Su1 Dong1-po1 said about the native dialects spoken in the south at his time(~1000yr ago): cry like monkeys.

simply bcoz cantonese sounds closer to the langauge spoken in central china during the glorious tang dynasty would make cantonese a better option for communication nowadays?   
roman empire was great too but do u also know Latin was already a dead lanague 500yrs ago?  english is also a very newly evolved language if to compare with italian, french and german, but its the most spoken language nowadays all around the world. chinese comes 2nd but mainly just within china.

as i said before, language comes and goes. cantonese is one of the least evolved chinese dialects and the curtain is closing for its service, whether u like it or not.

wicked

hi Uncle

thx for sharing ur daughter's writing. u must be so proud of her. critical thinking was probably not even in my vocabulary when i was her age.

i agree that drill exercises help boost asians performances in examinations and the sorts and asians are at best only equally smart as the white. the white has shown their dominance in almost all the continents they set foot upon (except east asia), to say they are dumber than us is reflection of poor judgement of our own.

but i do think racial difference plays a part in achievement. take the example of our two close neighbours -- japan and philiphine, both are island countries, have incorporated western democractic system, one exports sophisticated high-end electronics around the world and its culture wellrespected; one exports domestic helpers who might have an education background in international politics. anyone like to enlighten me why such a contrast?

yes we are all decendants of Lucy (as by the academic saying), but what have happened during the journey from Lucy to us in the course of 200,000yrs or even longer? whats the meaning of time if to say everyone is the same after all that long journey?

i dont need that much a scientific mind to exclude hainan and vietnam from the list. u wouldnt have made such a specific differenciation that u r not a cantonese while ur wife is, knowing  that i group cantonese together with hainanese and vietnamese in the low end, unless u meant to trap me. but then i thought only wicked ppl like me would bother doing stuff like that.

i appreciate ur good intention but i did mean every word i said. i treat ppl with due respect. i have no intention to nurture enemy among strangers but if there is a pathetic attention seeker with a self-inflated big head and inferior-complexed mind asking for my attention, i m always happy to comply. u dont come across ppl like that often and i would usually pass them as an entertaining big mouth as long as they leave me alone.

perhaps till next time. hope u had a geat holiday and best wishes for the new year.

wicked

friendly guy

no intention to offend u but just curious, are u always so scientific in ur everyday judgements? we actually make more judgements by intuition than reasoning and logic.

u name suggests a sense of easygoing-ness but i seem to sense more of tenseness in ur argument.

racial eradication happens by gene dilution. the less competitive lot are less likely to find a partner to pass on their genes.

genocide still happens often in africa though. u should know why by now i hope.

adopting a different language does not alter ur gene but can increase ur competitiveness in finding a partner of better gene and thus upgrade the gene of ur next generation. otherwise, why bothering learning english for?

yes most mutations are not good. revolultion is just like a mutation to a society. but some mutations can change the course of evolution to new light, this is how new species come about. the most recent academic research suggests one single mutation to a gene controlling the jaw muscle in a great ape (or man's ancient ancestor) resulting in man's different evolution path from our cousins, the great apes whose DNA is only of 1% difference from ours. apes still live in the jungle and we live in civilized cities and even reach out of the planet earth. our current average new borns amount about the same as the total population of great apes. if 1% difference can actually translate into that much difference, why cant a 0.000001%, for example, difference between the black and the white attribute to the contrast between the black neigbourhood and white neighbourhood? is it such a difficult logic?

happy new year to u too.

wicked

its more than often i have heard ppl pointing out that most of the NBA players are black whereas most of the coaches are white. different reasons have been suggested. the one i tend to agree more is bcoz the blacks are more monkey like( that must guarantee another racist point in my account). it has been more of an intuitive guess till recently after i watched a documentary showing the amazing short-term memory of a chimpanzee (which is considered our closest cousin of all the great apes). a chimpanzee only needs less than 0.1 sec (sth like 0.065s if i dont recall it wrong) to remember the positions of all the numbers flashed randomly on the sceen and point out the position from 0 to 9 in sequence. man by comparison can only remember up to 5 at best(kids tend to do better than adults). the explanation is that such short-term, almost instinct-like ability is vital for a chimpanzee’s survival in its natural enviroment where it needs to spot its enemies or food quickly, whereas for man, such ability has been traded off during the long journey of evolution for long-term and sophisticated planning. very likely black ppl have retained a bit more of such short-term ability than the other races, allowing them an edge in sports like basketball which demands speed and quick reflexes more than strategies. even as slight as 0.001sec’s difference in spring-into-action can already make a difference in who gets the re-bound or who gets short-cut. blacks are well-known for their quick spring-into-action, giving them advantage in short-course races. by a similar logic, i guess those who jump into conclusion quick is also becoz they are more monkey like but thats not necessarily a disadvantage depending on the situation.

[ 本帖最後由 wicked 於 11-2-11 18:24 編輯 ]

friendlyguy

Wicked,

Yes, my job requires me doing most of the things on a scientific basis. I agree that we do most things based on intuition in everyday life. However, when it comes to your posts, you are using seemingly scientific arguments to support your proposal of replacing Cantonese with PTH and it seems that there is obvious bias in your intuition. I also think this is a big issue and very controversial subject (both PTH is superior to Cantonese and Cantonese people is less “evolved” and less intelligent), therefore I think the standard should be set a bit higher. I think I have been deeply influenced by my university teachers that they will ask for scientific reference if someone says something they didn’t understand, didn’t heard of or didn’t agree. I think this is a right thing to do, since a very meaningful discussion can be started if there is really a scientific basis, or to stop someone boasting around if otherwise.

Policymaking is a big deal to all the people in the society. I think you won’t like the policy makers to do things just on intuition without any scientific basis. Right?

Can you give an example that a modern human race (Homo sapiens sapiens) is eradicated by gene dilution alone in human history? I don’t quite understand what you say. Even if a race is eradicated by natural selection alone without any human intervention (e.g. a race may be eradicated by a particular disease if they all lack genes for immunity to it.), I don’t think that there is any problem although it is a tragedy. Yes, genocide still happens in some part of Africa. Basically different races are fighting for the complete control of the resources (land, wealth, food and water). Can you tell me the relevance with the current discussion about adopting PTH in Hong Kong? I hope you are not proposing eradicating Cantonese genes. Right?

Not to offend, you have a funny idea of why we learn English. I showed it to my wife and my young kid, they both laughed to death! We all don’t understand why knowing English can find a partner with better genes. Since you know English, did you find your right one with better genes than those who don’t know English? How can you prove that? Mind you, some of the well-educated people in Hong Kong and China chose not to have offspring these days.

Of course many mutations change the course of evolution to new light
Otherwise why there are single cell animals evolved to complex animals. In my last post, I only pointed out that mutation is a very slow process. Judging by your last post, you have just watched a TV series “Human ape” produced by National Geographic, which was shown on ATV World Channel a few weeks ago. These series have been produced a few years ago. It says that when we compare the skull bone of Australopithecus boisei and Homo erectus, A. boisei has a prominent sagittal crest on it skull caused by attachment of jaw muscle (presumably the Temporalis, a masticatory muscle) while H. erectus don’t have it. They postulated that this muscle produced a huge masticatory force on the skull and constrained the development of the brain, and that is why H. erectus had larger brain case, more intelligent, and they evolved to use tool. However, there are some more points to note:

1.        In genus Australopithecus, only aethopicus, robustus, boisei have these sagittal crests. There are still debates that whether they should be put in a separate Genus Paranthropus (it is the latest thinking, and since they are very different morphologically, I like to use Paranthropus to represent them).
2.        The first species of Homo should be H. habilis (the ‘Handy man’ that were universally agreed who could use more sophisticated tool. I don’t know why they did not compare with this species) It is probably directly descended from Australopithecus garhi, Australopithecus africanus or Australopithecus afarensis (there is still debate about it) that all these three species do not have sagittal crest. Ancestor of Genus Homo is definitely not Paranthropus.
3.        Australopithecus afarensis, the species that ‘Lucy’ belongs to, is not considered to be the first hominin nowadays. It is Australopithecus anamensis that appeared 4.2-3.9mya (million years ago) who is given the credit. It appeared earlier than ‘Lucy’.
4.        Hominin walked out of the forest long before the appearance of Paranthropus.
5.        The huge jaw muscle of Genus Paranthropus was probably due to their diet that they ate tough vegetation. Genus Homo were omnivores and they could find food more easily and their food was more nutritive so they could easily out compete Paranthropus. Some people even say that Homo preyed on Paranthropus. Paranthropus is only considered as a side branch of human evolution chain that represented an unsuccessful path of evolution parallel to that followed by our direct ancestor.
6.        There was sexual dimorphism in Paranthropus. Females didn’t have that sagittal crest, so there was no muscle constraint on skull bone. However, there was no evidence of brain case of female Paranthropus being larger.
7.        They compared the jaw muscle of modern apes to modern human and found that jaw muscle fibre of ape was larger than that of human. They then extrapolated this result to H. erectus and P. boisei and said that there might be a single mutation of gene that changed the size of jaw muscle fiber hence producing less force.
8.        When we study modern apes, only gorillas have this sagittal crest. Chimpanzees do not have it, and their brain volume is still significantly smaller than modern human. Mind you, gorilla is herbivorous and Chimp is omnivorous.
9.        By common sense, the magnitude of force exerted by a muscle depends on the size of the muscle as a whole, not to the size of muscle fiber. Therefore, in this experiment, the wrong parameter might have been chosen.
10.        By modern research, we know that the size of muscle can be trained. That means, if a skinny person goes through vigorous training, his muscle volume can increase and their muscle fiber can increase in size (hypertrophy). Therefore, the difference in muscle size from Genus Paranthropus to Genus Homo may be due to diet change instead of mutation of gene controlling size of muscle.
11.        Although the jaw muscle is larger in Paranthropus, the larger force did not necessarily constrain the skull. If you look at the anatomy of its skull, there is a sagittal suture between the left and right side of the skull. If there is growth potential of brain, the Skull can easily expand by bone growth in this suture.
12.        Larger brain size species (Which is said to be more intelligent) did not necessarily out compete smaller brain one. One example is Homo neanderthalensis (another human species that co-existed with Homo sapiens for a period of time in Europe) that had a larger brain volume than Homo sapiens was out competed by our immediate ancestors.



The above may make other people bored to death. However, since you have a background in life science, I think you know what I mean. I haven’t read the scientific report about this. If I can have a copy of it, I may think otherwise. I am not here to boast my knowledge but just to show you that it could be dangerous to believe popular newspaper, TV shows (in this case, I think only 5 to 10min spent on it) so easily.

You have mentioned another experiment comparing short-term memory of Chimp to young human kid. I think their conclusion is correct. However, your extrapolation of good short-term memory to speed and reflexes really shock me. We don’t know for sure what make memory in our brain. It may be some chemical mediator or inter-connection between nerve fibers (Central nervous system). Speed and reflex are more of concern with the peripheral nervous system. They are totally different things. If your theory is correct, the NBA team can select their player by testing their short-term memory. Isn’t it weird? If you want to prove Black people is more ‘monkey like’ (‘Ape like’, is a more appropriate term. I think you know the difference between monkey and ape.), a small experiment can be easily conducted by slightly modifying the current one. You can just recruit a number of young kids, group them according to their skin colour and test their short-term memory. If the results show that black kids have a more powerful short-term memory, than you theory is right. You may also derive an experiment to compare the speed of reflex between Chimp and difference colour skinned people. But, to do that, you have to get the approval of the University Ethical committee first. Doing thing mostly by intuition without proper and careful reasoning is more of ‘monkey like’ in your own words.

I think nobody in this forum says everyone is equal genetically (you and your offspring also have genetic difference. This is what makes an individual an “individual”) or in any other aspect. However, is this small difference really makes one race more ‘evolved’ than the other? Mind you, we are the same sub-species Homo sapiens sapiens. Furthermore, we are all Chinese, no matter where we come from.

I really don’t think genetic and evolution have any relevant in the discussion of teaching medium. May be we just stop here (as you say, judging by my understanding of evolution, we are hardly on a close level for a meaningful discussion and you don’t owe any one an education) and go back to pros and cons of teaching in PTH and Cantonese. I have to confess that I know very little about the good and bad of both dialects. After reading kaykaychow’s post, I hope someone can give some more scholastic information about the beauty of PTH. May be Wicked can give some more information. BTW, can you tell me in what circumstances, 蘇東坡give his comment about the local Southern dialect? Where did it come from? I can’t find it in the Internet. I know you don’t owe anyone a lecture here, but I really want to learn more. One of my most respected Professors said,’ Once a student, always a student!’ I think it is very true!

Basically, I am an easygoing person. I am not planning to reply in this thread anymore after reading your reply. However, after reading Eviepa’s post, I think I have an obligation to tell others that there may be misleading information in some seemingly scientific arguments. Reminding someone is also a friendly gesture, isn’t it?

Ah! One more thing, who is the Father of psychology is in dispute. William James, Wilhelm Maximilian Wundt and Sigmund Freud have been given the credit. There was no one single person found psychology for sure. Freud is better to be considered as Father of psychoanalysis according to his work. I think you know what’s the difference between psychology and psychoanalysis. Right?

I think I will not answer your post if you insist on there is a relationship between teaching medium and genetics or evolution. I have been blamed by my wife that I have been 無聊 in discussing these things with a nonsensical person (I have to apologize for my wife to make such a rude comment.) In order to keep my family in harmony, I better stop here. 廣東話：怕老婆會發達！


Regards,

Friendlyguy

P.S. I did not study anthropology. All the information on human evolution came from my son who is still a primary student. Believe it or not, he is the expert in this field in my family. So, if you find anything wrong in this post, don’t blame me! 廣東話：有怪莫怪，細路仔唔識世界。

iamfine

I just can't help wondering whether claiming superiority in a dialect (gosh, we are not even talking about a language) or seeking leadership in a pack is more chimpanzee like.